Expectations

[PapaG]

We didn’t have quality coaching candidates?

I swear guys, I hate it here.

Guessing that's a comment on my post. If so, I didn't say we didn't have quality candidates, I just said they haven't exactly been great ones beating down the door. We can talk the semantics of that if you want, but my point is it's hard to get the caliber of coaches we'd expect to come to Bozeman (including assistants). The pressure and the cost of living don't make it pencil out for a lot of guys. Yes there are higher pressure jobs. Yes there are more expensive places to live (barely). But a pretty simple cost-benefit analysis says it's not worth it for plenty of people. Even a head coach salary doesn't set you apart in Bozeman. Coordinator salaries can maybe buy you a modest condo. So the point I was making is that cleaning house and trying to find a new guy and a bunch of assistants is not the answer here.

Considering where the program came from, for their own reasons the last 4 hires were filled with about as good of candidates as can be expected.

Kramer took over for a beaten down Cliff Hysell and injected energy and swagger that led to wins, Ash was the stability needed after the off-the-field chaos of a handful of kind of sketchy people but good players of later Kramer teams. Choate was a young blood and re-injection of enthusiasm and also had an infrastructure now set up for consistent success and aspired to a higher job.

Vigen learned a great system of culture under Bohl and that’s the next step for long-term success. He’s almost perfect for this job. I do not feel one bit that Housewright fits into a consistent culture because he is chaotic at times that call for being calm and collected. Garza would be fine without his drinking problem but having those examples in the coaching room doesn’t set a good example as I see it.

[kennethnoisewater]

We didn’t have quality coaching candidates?

I swear guys, I hate it here.

Guessing that's a comment on my post. If so, I didn't say we didn't have quality candidates, I just said they haven't exactly been great ones beating down the door. We can talk the semantics of that if you want, but my point is it's hard to get the caliber of coaches we'd expect to come to Bozeman (including assistants). The pressure and the cost of living don't make it pencil out for a lot of guys. Yes there are higher pressure jobs. Yes there are more expensive places to live (barely). But a pretty simple cost-benefit analysis says it's not worth it for plenty of people. Even a head coach salary doesn't set you apart in Bozeman. Coordinator salaries can maybe buy you a modest condo. So the point I was making is that cleaning house and trying to find a new guy and a bunch of assistants is not the answer here.

No, your exact words were:

“MSU hasn't had quality coaching candidates beating down the doors the last couple times.”

You can explain it however you want, but you’re wrong. Ken Wilson, Trent Bray, Matt Lubick, Vigen, and others, are all more than quality candidates.

Alright beating down the doors means something different to me but your point is well received. I never disagreed with that take either.

I guess I’m confused on what you mean by beating down the doors. They all applied for the job. Are you expecting them to be verbose about how much they want the job before they get it?

I mean a couple of things. It doesn't seem to me that there were a ton of candidates, first of all. I could be dead wrong on that. I also know there has been at least one candidate who turned down the job once it was offered to him. To me that's a guy who's exploring his options, not beating down the door for the job. Our friends over the hill are fond of saying Vigen was not the first choice. As predicted, we're talking semantics.

I have been happy with both of the guys who got the last two HC jobs, but I've been underwhelmed by some other hires, and I was including those in this discussion. Because if you clean house, which was suggested on this thread and others, you have to find everybody.

Even though I've ended up liking both guys, I wasn't exactly blown away when they were hired. I've been a coach and an AD though, so I don't need to be blown away. But I think some people would be looking for a splash hire that would make headlines and I'm highly doubtful any of those guys will be "beating down the door" or even casually looking.

[catatac]

I remember all those years the playoffs were completely out of reach. Now all we worry about is how high our seeding will be. We are in a very good place. It's really hard to win a 'ship. But we are in the hunt every year. The NDSU loss killed me. The fact the frizzzzz are #2 and have the easiest path to the semis in the history of the tournament (no I can't back that up with data) is killing me even more. But we are in a very good place. And I am enjoying it thoroughly.

What kills me is Cats in 22 had 1 loss, to Oregon State, still a 4 seed. Still on road. This year Griz bad loss to NAU, 2 seed home thru the playoffs.

You can't look at our results in a particular season in a vacuum, or the Griz results, when you're assessing whether or not the playoff seedings were accurate or fair. You also have to look at the results of the other top teams. You could make a case that we should have been the 3 seed rather than 4 last year, but we definitely weren't gonna be any higher than 3. Do you think they weren't deserving of a 2 seed this year? Who would you have placed higher than them? Remember, if we had taken care of business in Missoula, we would have had that 2 seed instead of them, with a 9-2 record. Last year, with a 10-1 record, we got only a 4 seed, and the best we could have hoped for would have been a 3 seed. In 2021, we were 9-2 and got only an 8 seed. This year, at 8-3, we got a 6 seed. Things play out differently every year among the top teams across the nation.

Exactly this. We’ll start the season ranked in the top ten. Looking at the schedule I bet we’ll likely be favored in every game with possible exceptions of ID and Sac depending on what they do, and we get them at home as you pointed out. So then we could likely be playing the Griz for the Big Sky title and top 2 seed, again. We get them at home. I think the sky is the limit (no pun intended) for the Cats in 2024, and I think 9-3 end to the season would be worst case scenario.

[technoCat]

And is it okay to give RBs 15-20 carries a game. Scottre only got 10 vs NDSU, wasn't enough. It's not like Tommy is a little guy.

No with the depth at that position the cats have, there is no reason why any one back for every game receive that many carries. Obviously Tommy is super dynamic and has home run potential every time he takes off, but you had Scottre averaging 7 yards a carry against NDSU on 10 carries. Tommy minus the long TD run was about 17 for 80, White idk if he was dinged up same I’m assuming for Sumner but you still had Elliot, who was none existent all season despite looking very capable of handling some touches last year. What I’ve always said about NDSU not so much this year but ever year that they were on top, was that they used their RB depth extremely well during the season and come playoff time all their backs looked extremely healthy and fresh, which is part of the reason IMO why they always seemed to be leaps ahead of everyone in the playoffs. It just seems to be a pattern ifanse, Troy, sumner, chambers, Davis, etc. are hobbling into the playoffs.

Elliot has been hurt, I’m assuming White was dinged up, Sumner was hurt for most of the season and when he came back wasn’t particularly explosive, Davis was hurt…so they had Humphrey, and Sumner available to them. Could have used Adam Jones, but he hasn’t played a lot. So yeah, they ran Tommy more in a win or go home situation, just like they should. And he wouldn’t have had as many carries if he had given the ball up like he should’ve. Thats not all on the coaches.

We must have the most snakebit RB crew I have ever seen. All we do all year is whine that they aren't getting enough carries but SOMEHOW they are all injured 75% of the time?! I was wondering the whole first half if Tommy was avoiding handing the ball off because Scottre was our only healthy RB and he knew he would need him in the second half.

[Clinton T]

I know I will settle down and be back next year but right now someone needs to be accountable for this!

Maybe just settle down and be accountable for yourself. Nobody else needs to be accountable for your feelings.

No they don't but they should be accountable to the boosters, the fans and the administration. Sure, if we were ISU or Northern Colorado I could see it but we are one of the top 4 programs in the country at FCS. We should be better than this.

I completely understand the frustration...but the teams we lost to were pretty damn good and we lost on the road. We are not NDSU of old or the current SDSU team...we are going to lose games! Expecting this team to get to that level is a great goal, but the chances of that happening to ANY program are low. To expect that we should have won every tough road game this year, especially with our injury situation, was completely unrealistic. Our guys battled and it was a great year. Stay strong and remember how much fun going to a Saturday game in Bozeman is!

[tetoncat]

I remember all those years the playoffs were completely out of reach. Now all we worry about is how high our seeding will be. We are in a very good place. It's really hard to win a 'ship. But we are in the hunt every year. The NDSU loss killed me. The fact the frizzzzz are #2 and have the easiest path to the semis in the history of the tournament (no I can't back that up with data) is killing me even more. But we are in a very good place. And I am enjoying it thoroughly.

What kills me is Cats in 22 had 1 loss, to Oregon State, still a 4 seed. Still on road. This year Griz bad loss to NAU, 2 seed home thru the playoffs.

You can't look at our results in a particular season in a vacuum, or the Griz results, when you're assessing whether or not the playoff seedings were accurate or fair. You also have to look at the results of the other top teams. You could make a case that we should have been the 3 seed rather than 4 last year, but we definitely weren't gonna be any higher than 3. Do you think they weren't deserving of a 2 seed this year? Who would you have placed higher than them? Remember, if we had taken care of business in Missoula, we would have had that 2 seed instead of them, with a 9-2 record. Last year, with a 10-1 record, we got only a 4 seed, and the best we could have hoped for would have been a 3 seed. In 2021, we were 9-2 and got only an 8 seed. This year, at 8-3, we got a 6 seed. Things play out differently every year among the top teams across the nation.

Didn't say anything about fair. Just an analogy to OP. We had a better chance last year if we get 2 seed and could argue we should have, or at least 3, committee didn't want that, don't want conference matchups in semis if can avoid. We shouldn't have had NDSU after bye either. Could have had SIU, Youngstown etc and NDSU should have been at Villanova

[catzz]

We didn’t have quality coaching candidates?

I swear guys, I hate it here.

Guessing that's a comment on my post. If so, I didn't say we didn't have quality candidates, I just said they haven't exactly been great ones beating down the door. We can talk the semantics of that if you want, but my point is it's hard to get the caliber of coaches we'd expect to come to Bozeman (including assistants). The pressure and the cost of living don't make it pencil out for a lot of guys. Yes there are higher pressure jobs. Yes there are more expensive places to live (barely). But a pretty simple cost-benefit analysis says it's not worth it for plenty of people. Even a head coach salary doesn't set you apart in Bozeman. Coordinator salaries can maybe buy you a modest condo. So the point I was making is that cleaning house and trying to find a new guy and a bunch of assistants is not the answer here.

No, your exact words were:

“MSU hasn't had quality coaching candidates beating down the doors the last couple times.”

You can explain it however you want, but you’re wrong. Ken Wilson, Trent Bray, Matt Lubick, Vigen, and others, are all more than quality candidates.

Alright beating down the doors means something different to me but your point is well received. I never disagreed with that take either.

I guess I’m confused on what you mean by beating down the doors. They all applied for the job. Are you expecting them to be verbose about how much they want the job before they get it?

I mean a couple of things. It doesn't seem to me that there were a ton of candidates, first of all. I could be dead wrong on that. I also know there has been at least one candidate who turned down the job once it was offered to him. To me that's a guy who's exploring his options, not beating down the door for the job. Our friends over the hill are fond of saying Vigen was not the first choice. As predicted, we're talking semantics.

I have been happy with both of the guys who got the last two HC jobs, but I've been underwhelmed by some other hires, and I was including those in this discussion. Because if you clean house, which was suggested on this thread and others, you have to find everybody.

Even though I've ended up liking both guys, I wasn't exactly blown away when they were hired. I've been a coach and an AD though, so I don't need to be blown away. But I think some people would be looking for a splash hire that would make headlines and I'm highly doubtful any of those guys will be "beating down the door" or even casually looking.

I have been/am a coach, I was/am an AD… I see much differently than you. We have had great candidates recently for all MSU sports. Given MSU’s size, pay scale, bonuses, division, money allotments… Did you expect better candidates? I was very pleased with all previous candidates except Bobby H…. I truly think you are off a bit on coaches applying for MSU coaching positions.

If so… Please get ahold of me and I can direct you into ways to donate more to help us increase our coaching candidates.

I can’t wait until I can start paying my middle school coaches more

[kennethnoisewater]

We didn’t have quality coaching candidates?

I swear guys, I hate it here.

Guessing that's a comment on my post. If so, I didn't say we didn't have quality candidates, I just said they haven't exactly been great ones beating down the door. We can talk the semantics of that if you want, but my point is it's hard to get the caliber of coaches we'd expect to come to Bozeman (including assistants). The pressure and the cost of living don't make it pencil out for a lot of guys. Yes there are higher pressure jobs. Yes there are more expensive places to live (barely). But a pretty simple cost-benefit analysis says it's not worth it for plenty of people. Even a head coach salary doesn't set you apart in Bozeman. Coordinator salaries can maybe buy you a modest condo. So the point I was making is that cleaning house and trying to find a new guy and a bunch of assistants is not the answer here.

No, your exact words were:

“MSU hasn't had quality coaching candidates beating down the doors the last couple times.”

You can explain it however you want, but you’re wrong. Ken Wilson, Trent Bray, Matt Lubick, Vigen, and others, are all more than quality candidates.

Alright beating down the doors means something different to me but your point is well received. I never disagreed with that take either.

I guess I’m confused on what you mean by beating down the doors. They all applied for the job. Are you expecting them to be verbose about how much they want the job before they get it?

I mean a couple of things. It doesn't seem to me that there were a ton of candidates, first of all. I could be dead wrong on that. I also know there has been at least one candidate who turned down the job once it was offered to him. To me that's a guy who's exploring his options, not beating down the door for the job. Our friends over the hill are fond of saying Vigen was not the first choice. As predicted, we're talking semantics.

I have been happy with both of the guys who got the last two HC jobs, but I've been underwhelmed by some other hires, and I was including those in this discussion. Because if you clean house, which was suggested on this thread and others, you have to find everybody.

Even though I've ended up liking both guys, I wasn't exactly blown away when they were hired. I've been a coach and an AD though, so I don't need to be blown away. But I think some people would be looking for a splash hire that would make headlines and I'm highly doubtful any of those guys will be "beating down the door" or even casually looking.

I have been/am a coach, I was/am an AD… I see much differently than you. We have had great candidates recently for all MSU sports. Given MSU’s size, pay scale, bonuses, division, money allotments… Did you expect better candidates? I was very pleased with all previous candidates except Bobby H…. I truly think you are off a bit on coaches applying for MSU coaching positions.

If so… Please get ahold of me and I can direct you into ways to donate more to help us increase our coaching candidates.

I can’t wait until I can start paying my middle school coaches more

I don't think you guys are understanding what I'm saying. I've said multiple times I thought there were good candidates. I think some of them weren't serious about getting the job, first of all. At least one, a lot of us on here presumed, was leveraging his interview here to get a better contract at his other school. I've said I just don't think they're "beating down the door". Obviously I've used a term several people disagree on the meaning of, and that's ok. What that means TO ME is that there's not an abundance of quality candidates for open positions, and I'm not just talking about head coaches. Could it be that we hired WMG with his checkered past because there wasn't an abundance of quality candidates looking to make a fairly modest salary relative to the cost of living in Bozeman? As an AD you know the community wants new coaches more often than it's practical. Part of that is because it's hard to find people who are better than what's in place because you don't know how they'll do. Don't be quick to fire, because it's hard to find really high quality people...they aren't growing on trees and they're not beating down the door.

In summary (trying this because several explanations haven't been helpful), MSU has outstanding coaches, and I don't think there are a lot of people out there who are as good or better, so we shouldn't go cleaning house. I wish I wasn't still explaining this.