Vibes of 2014

[Lord Vigo]

I think the stronger parallels are to 2021.

Strong regular season that ends with a whimper in Missoula, prompting some major offensive changes in the playoffs.

Those Prukop/Ash teams were soft. The Cats have some problems to work out and it remains to be seen if they can, but they aren't soft.

I respect you a lot as a logical poster on this site. But I was there in person yesterday, and the only guys I saw show up ready to compete in a big, high pressure game were Davis and Tommy, who played bad but hard. As my cousin said, not a lot of “dawgs”. What did you see that made you think we aren’t “soft”?

The balance of the last two seasons.

Perhaps I’m being dense, but could you explain what you mean a little more? Do you mean we kicked them around last year, they kicked us around this year, it balances out?

I mean that I've never gotten the impression that Brent Vigen's teams are soft. They tend to play a physical, aggressive brand of football. One game, where they admittedly came out flat and with less passion than UM, does not change that for me.

Soft isn’t the right word. Timid is more the right description. On our heels, reeling from the punches thrown, almost anticipating that things were going to go wrong. Lacking some mental toughness and preparation, maybe. Soft is a bridge too far tho.

They were certainly unprepared. But I'm not sure that I would apply that to them generally on the season.

[TomCat88]

Yes, the tackling was reminiscent of that year. Tackling is a lot like rebounding a basketball in my opinion. Most of them just find you, but if there's a challenge from someone (ball carrier or another rebounder) then it goes to the person who wants it more and/or has better technique.

[JoeCatsJoe]

They were certainly unprepared. But I'm not sure that I would apply that to them generally on the season.
[/quote]

So you would say that a one game sample size isn’t enough to say that they are a timid team? Fair enough. I’d probably disagree a bit, cuz who you are shines through in pressure situations. Looking timid in the biggest game of the season and possibly the biggest Cat-Griz ever tells me a lot about the mentality of the team. Maybe I’m extrapolating too much, but that’s my opinion.

[TomCat88]

They were certainly unprepared. But I'm not sure that I would apply that to them generally on the season.

So you would say that a one game sample size isn’t enough to say that they are a timid team? Fair enough. I’d probably disagree a bit, cuz who you are shines through in pressure situations. Looking timid in the biggest game of the season and possibly the biggest Cat-Griz ever tells me a lot about the mentality of the team. Maybe I’m extrapolating too much, but that’s my opinion.
[/quote]
Timid? I don't think so. Thinking that a shoulder or forearm shimmy was going to bring McDowell (he's big) or Gillman down was more of what I saw.

[JoeCatsJoe]

They were certainly unprepared. But I'm not sure that I would apply that to them generally on the season.

So you would say that a one game sample size isn’t enough to say that they are a timid team? Fair enough. I’d probably disagree a bit, cuz who you are shines through in pressure situations. Looking timid in the biggest game of the season and possibly the biggest Cat-Griz ever tells me a lot about the mentality of the team. Maybe I’m extrapolating too much, but that’s my opinion.

Timid? I don't think so. Thinking that a shoulder or forearm shimmy was going to bring McDowell (he's big) or Gillman down was more of what I saw.
[/quote]

Hmm. Maybe you and I just disagree on that point, or maybe I’m just wrong. But what I saw was that we were not playing fast and aggressive. We weren’t dictating anything to them, we were taking whatever they were dictating to us. Perhaps my fallacy is that the lack of aggression and fire isn’t necessarily timidity, but either way, it’s a problem in my opinion

[onceacat]

I think the stronger parallels are to 2021.

Strong regular season that ends with a whimper in Missoula, prompting some major offensive changes in the playoffs.

Those Prukop/Ash teams were soft. The Cats have some problems to work out and it remains to be seen if they can, but they aren't soft.

I respect you a lot as a logical poster on this site. But I was there in person yesterday, and the only guys I saw show up ready to compete in a big, high pressure game were Davis and Tommy, who played bad but hard. As my cousin said, not a lot of “dawgs”. What did you see that made you think we aren’t “soft”?

The balance of the last two seasons.

Perhaps I’m being dense, but could you explain what you mean a little more? Do you mean we kicked them around last year, they kicked us around this year, it balances out?

I mean that I've never gotten the impression that Brent Vigen's teams are soft. They tend to play a physical, aggressive brand of football. One game, where they admittedly came out flat and with less passion than UM, does not change that for me.

Soft isn’t the right word. Timid is more the right description. On our heels, reeling from the punches thrown, almost anticipating that things were going to go wrong. Lacking some mental toughness and preparation, maybe. Soft is a bridge too far tho.

They were certainly unprepared. But I'm not sure that I would apply that to them generally on the season.

They were clearly out of sorts for the first half in Moscow...I kind of chalked that up to the tough travel schedule & short practice week.

[BLACKnBLUEnGOLD]

Both were talented teams with a glaring weakness. Beyond that, I don't see it.

Prukop and Mellot were/are not similar players at all. Prukop was a true dual-threat QB who always seemed to play small in big games. Mellot is really a running QB and not a dual threat, but between the 2021 playoff run and last year's Cat-Griz, it would be extremely unfair to call him bad in big games.

[onceacat]

Both were talented teams with a glaring weakness. Beyond that, I don't see it.

Prukop and Mellot were/are not similar players at all. Prukop was a true dual-threat QB who always seemed to play small in big games. Mellot is really a running QB and not a dual threat, but between the 2021 playoff run and last year's Cat-Griz, it would be extremely unfair to call him bad in big games.

I'd quibble a bit: Prukop was rarely bad in big games. His supporting cast regularly disappeared. But I don't think I ever remember an out and out BAD game from Prukop. And Prukop was a better passer than Mellot, but he was also clearly an average BSC passer.

Tommy has never been BAD in a big game until yesterday, but he certainly wasn't good in either the SDSU or Idaho games. He certainly wasnt good at OSU or the SDSU game last year. But my point isnt to pick on QB play on the teams.

My point is really the glaring weakness: The inability to execute, both on offense AND on Defense in critical/difficult/challenging situations. Prukop never led a game winning drive. Mellot & Chambers never have led a game winning drive (I think, you could double check me on that)

Super talented offensive lines that made dumb mistakes.

Defensive problems arent the same...that 2014 team looked like it was playing on roller skates sometimes, but the current D despite being in position to make plays all the time, doesnt seem capable of finishing.

The Brawl was what really made it sink in for me (and Prukop didnt play in the '14 Brawl) where the Cat offense moved the ball with ease in between the 20s then squandered multiple red zone opportunities. Final score was about the same.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

But "super talented team unable to execute against equally talented opponents" seems to be the big parallel.

[BLACKnBLUEnGOLD]

But "super talented team unable to execute against equally talented opponents" seems to be the big parallel.

All talented teams with a glaring weakness look like that.

Also, Prukop was clearly an above-average passer. He might have been average among the good BSC QBs but he wasn't average compared to all of them.

[Helcat72]

I don't think they have taken enough time to school Tommy on the passing game. His effectiveness passing has always come from the fact we were running the ball with ease, and because he is accurate and can hit a receiver that is open, or one that will compete for a 50-50 ball he began to look like a D1 passer. However, he was never schooled in moving the sticks with the passing game. He throws the quick out pattern and the deep fade and that's all. You can tell that bee's hesitant to this the ball in the 10 to 15 yard middle. The fact that we don't have the kind of receivers that fit with a true coordinated passing game makes it that much harder for him.

[catsrback76]

I don't think they have taken enough time to school Tommy on the passing game. His effectiveness passing has always come from the fact we were running the ball with ease, and because he is accurate and can hit a receiver that is open, or one that will compete for a 50-50 ball he began to look like a D1 passer. However, he was never schooled in moving the sticks with the passing game. He throws the quick out pattern and the deep fade and that's all. You can tell that bee's hesitant to this the ball in the 10 to 15 yard middle. The fact that we don't have the kind of receivers that fit with a true coordinated passing game makes it that much harder for him.

THIS!
I feel bad for Tommy because I see him getting into his head when things aren’t going well. He takes too much responsibility to make it right…by doing what he’s been trained to do, versus being fluid and doing what he does best by stressing the D and then using the pass to score chunk plays.

[Lord Vigo]

So you would say that a one game sample size isn’t enough to say that they are a timid team? Fair enough. I’d probably disagree a bit, cuz who you are shines through in pressure situations. Looking timid in the biggest game of the season and possibly the biggest Cat-Griz ever tells me a lot about the mentality of the team. Maybe I’m extrapolating too much, but that’s my opinion.

Timid also isn't the word that I would use. However, I would counter by saying that your logic here suggests that this latest game in MSO is the only time they've been in a pressure situation. That's clearly not true-- they have played in a number of big games since Vigen took the helm and have shown out well in most of them.

[onceacat]

So you would say that a one game sample size isn’t enough to say that they are a timid team? Fair enough. I’d probably disagree a bit, cuz who you are shines through in pressure situations. Looking timid in the biggest game of the season and possibly the biggest Cat-Griz ever tells me a lot about the mentality of the team. Maybe I’m extrapolating too much, but that’s my opinion.

Timid also isn't the word that I would use. However, I would counter by saying that your logic here suggests that this latest game in MSO is the only time they've been in a pressure situation. That's clearly not true-- they have played in a number of big games since Vigen took the helm and have shown out well in most of them.

Playing slow & off? The first half of the Idaho game was pretty similarly...listless? I'd also throw in the SDSU game in the semis * the NDSU game in Frisco.

Not sure what to call it exactly, but in my mind is the sort of inability to win one on one matchups when the competition is of equal or slightly greater talent. I dont think any of those teams (UM 2x or SDSU or NDSU) are or were any more talented, but those were 4 pretty terrible blowouts for what should have been competitive games.

And I understand that it happens...MSU was not THAT much more talented than UM last year or Sammy 2 years ago.

Its just interesting in my mind how in a number of big games now, this team has been punched in the mouth to start & never quite knew how to respond.

[onceacat]

I don't think they have taken enough time to school Tommy on the passing game. His effectiveness passing has always come from the fact we were running the ball with ease, and because he is accurate and can hit a receiver that is open, or one that will compete for a 50-50 ball he began to look like a D1 passer. However, he was never schooled in moving the sticks with the passing game. He throws the quick out pattern and the deep fade and that's all. You can tell that bee's hesitant to this the ball in the 10 to 15 yard middle. The fact that we don't have the kind of receivers that fit with a true coordinated passing game makes it that much harder for him.

THIS!
I feel bad for Tommy because I see him getting into his head when things aren’t going well. He takes too much responsibility to make it right…by doing what he’s been trained to do, versus being fluid and doing what he does best by stressing the D and then using the pass to score chunk plays.

Yeah, I don't think Tommy plays 'loose' especially when things get tough. He tries to do too much IMO, which leads to some bad reads on option plays & trying to force some passes that arent really his MO.

[Camo_Cat]

A quality passing attack begins and ends with an effective quarterback. IMHO, the reason the Cats have struggled at moving the ball downfield thru the air efficiently stems from the fact we have never truly had a QB coach. A QB coach is VERY different from a passing game coordinator or an offensive coordinator. Those guys are supposed to create game plans that best utilize our offensive weapons and attack the weaknesses of the opposing defense.

A QB coach, however, works with the quarterback on mechanics, arm strength techniques, reading defenses, going thru your progressions, etc. I honestly believe that the past coaches we have had that were supposed to work with the QB -- Udy, House, Frazier, Miller, Denarius, etc. -- were never truly QB coaches. They may have been past QBs or OCs, but they were not QB coaches. Granted - Vigen has worked with some very good QBs in past at Wyoming & NDSU. But how much was he involved in the development of that person? I'm guessing in most of the instances, there was a QB coach working in the background.

We shouldn't assume a good OC is also a good QB coach. A good QB coach is worth his weight in gold, and I believe our program has grown to point that we need to bring on a QB guru...if Vigen is ever serious about developing that position.

[Lord Vigo]

So you would say that a one game sample size isn’t enough to say that they are a timid team? Fair enough. I’d probably disagree a bit, cuz who you are shines through in pressure situations. Looking timid in the biggest game of the season and possibly the biggest Cat-Griz ever tells me a lot about the mentality of the team. Maybe I’m extrapolating too much, but that’s my opinion.

Timid also isn't the word that I would use. However, I would counter by saying that your logic here suggests that this latest game in MSO is the only time they've been in a pressure situation. That's clearly not true-- they have played in a number of big games since Vigen took the helm and have shown out well in most of them.

Playing slow & off? The first half of the Idaho game was pretty similarly...listless? I'd also throw in the SDSU game in the semis * the NDSU game in Frisco.

Not sure what to call it exactly, but in my mind is the sort of inability to win one on one matchups when the competition is of equal or slightly greater talent. I dont think any of those teams (UM 2x or SDSU or NDSU) are or were any more talented, but those were 4 pretty terrible blowouts for what should have been competitive games.

And I understand that it happens...MSU was not THAT much more talented than UM last year or Sammy 2 years ago.

Its just interesting in my mind how in a number of big games now, this team has been punched in the mouth to start & never quite knew how to respond.

I would just simply call it "playing poorly."

I don't think the team looked scared, timid, or soft. I just think they had a bad game. I also think there's a chance that the whole team feels somewhat uninspired by what Housewright is doing with the offense. As we saw with the Griz @NAU, where there's a collective lack of faith in the QB/offense, things can look a lot worse than they really are.

[Bear Spray II]

I think the stronger parallels are to 2021.

Strong regular season that ends with a whimper in Missoula, prompting some major offensive changes in the playoffs.

Those Prukop/Ash teams were soft. The Cats have some problems to work out and it remains to be seen if they can, but they aren't soft.

I respect you a lot as a logical poster on this site. But I was there in person yesterday, and the only guys I saw show up ready to compete in a big, high pressure game were Davis and Tommy, who played bad but hard. As my cousin said, not a lot of “dawgs”. What did you see that made you think we aren’t “soft”?

The balance of the last two seasons.

Perhaps I’m being dense, but could you explain what you mean a little more? Do you mean we kicked them around last year, they kicked us around this year, it balances out?

I mean that I've never gotten the impression that Brent Vigen's teams are soft. They tend to play a physical, aggressive brand of football. One game, where they admittedly came out flat and with less passion than UM, does not change that for me.

Soft? Do you think SDSU or Idaho would say the Cats are soft? The Griz were ready & so were their fans, let's give them some credit. Vigen has 14 days to heal up & game plan for NDSU at home. Think he'll be ready for NDSU? I do. It will be interesting to see what happens to House & Garza in the offseason. Let's hope coach V's still here too, next year this team is going to be really good again.

[TomCat88]

I don't think they have taken enough time to school Tommy on the passing game. His effectiveness passing has always come from the fact we were running the ball with ease, and because he is accurate and can hit a receiver that is open, or one that will compete for a 50-50 ball he began to look like a D1 passer. However, he was never schooled in moving the sticks with the passing game. He throws the quick out pattern and the deep fade and that's all. You can tell that bee's hesitant to this the ball in the 10 to 15 yard middle. The fact that we don't have the kind of receivers that fit with a true coordinated passing game makes it that much harder for him.

THIS!
I feel bad for Tommy because I see him getting into his head when things aren’t going well. He takes too much responsibility to make it right…by doing what he’s been trained to do, versus being fluid and doing what he does best by stressing the D and then using the pass to score chunk plays.

Yeah, I don't think Tommy plays 'loose' especially when things get tough. He tries to do too much IMO, which leads to some bad reads on option plays & trying to force some passes that arent really his MO.

He had a bad passing game vs UM. I don’t recall him playing poorly at any other point. I agree he isn’t as fluid as Sean but he makes up for it in other ways.

I don’t MSU needs to worry about the QBs. More than anything MSU needs to fix its pass D. That’s going to kill it in the playoffs.

[Common Cat]

I don't think they have taken enough time to school Tommy on the passing game. His effectiveness passing has always come from the fact we were running the ball with ease, and because he is accurate and can hit a receiver that is open, or one that will compete for a 50-50 ball he began to look like a D1 passer. However, he was never schooled in moving the sticks with the passing game. He throws the quick out pattern and the deep fade and that's all. You can tell that bee's hesitant to this the ball in the 10 to 15 yard middle. The fact that we don't have the kind of receivers that fit with a true coordinated passing game makes it that much harder for him.

THIS!
I feel bad for Tommy because I see him getting into his head when things aren’t going well. He takes too much responsibility to make it right…by doing what he’s been trained to do, versus being fluid and doing what he does best by stressing the D and then using the pass to score chunk plays.

Yeah, I don't think Tommy plays 'loose' especially when things get tough. He tries to do too much IMO, which leads to some bad reads on option plays & trying to force some passes that arent really his MO.

He had a bad passing game vs UM. I don’t recall him playing poorly at any other point. I agree he isn’t as fluid as Sean but he makes up for it in other ways.

I don’t MSU needs to worry about the QBs. More than anything MSU needs to fix its pass D. That’s going to kill it in the playoffs.

I believe it’s both. I would love to see more pressure and chambers starting.

[TomCat88]

I don't think they have taken enough time to school Tommy on the passing game. His effectiveness passing has always come from the fact we were running the ball with ease, and because he is accurate and can hit a receiver that is open, or one that will compete for a 50-50 ball he began to look like a D1 passer. However, he was never schooled in moving the sticks with the passing game. He throws the quick out pattern and the deep fade and that's all. You can tell that bee's hesitant to this the ball in the 10 to 15 yard middle. The fact that we don't have the kind of receivers that fit with a true coordinated passing game makes it that much harder for him.

THIS!
I feel bad for Tommy because I see him getting into his head when things aren’t going well. He takes too much responsibility to make it right…by doing what he’s been trained to do, versus being fluid and doing what he does best by stressing the D and then using the pass to score chunk plays.

Yeah, I don't think Tommy plays 'loose' especially when things get tough. He tries to do too much IMO, which leads to some bad reads on option plays & trying to force some passes that arent really his MO.

He had a bad passing game vs UM. I don’t recall him playing poorly at any other point. I agree he isn’t as fluid as Sean but he makes up for it in other ways.

I don’t MSU needs to worry about the QBs. More than anything MSU needs to fix its pass D. That’s going to kill it in the playoffs.

I believe it’s both. I would love to see more pressure and chambers starting.

MSU gets good QB play 99% of the time. This was the only game that the QBs were ineffective since 2021? MSU’s pass game and offense in general is very effective. It was ineffective for one game, the pass D has been ineffective for four straight weeks. I like Chambers but the offense was basically the same, effectively, when he was running it solo with Mellott out. MSU stands to gain a lot by getting its pass D back to the level it was at earlier in the season. The chances of MSU making a big gain by starting Chambers are very limited. It’s just not going to make a big difference. The main reason MSU was considered neck-and-neck with SDSU is because the defense had made a big step. That has ebbed especially in terms of pass D. Part of it could be from Polidore and Uluilakepa being out, Woodard being dinged up, and Uluilakepa being rusty vs UM.

If anything, offensively, MSU needs to get more consistent yardage on first and second downs running the ball. MSU is outstanding at breaking long runs but rarely marches the ball downfield on runs of 5,3,6,4,8,2,11,7,3,6,3,1,5. The average per run is outstanding but it’s also deceptive when it puts a team in a lot of obvious passing downs. MSU has started at least four games with a 3 and out this year and all four were 3rd and 6 or more and three of the four were losses. I bet it has more three and outs this year than last.