Special Teams

[blueandgoldblitz]

I'm not trying to demean the special teams but I come with a question for some of you with better memories. Have we stopped any fake punts/field goals since Vinatieri with SDSU took a fake field goal and turned it into a TD to win Gold Rush in....2017 I think?

[Montanabob]

I'm not trying to demean the special teams but I come with a question for some of you with better memories. Have we stopped any fake punts/field goals since Vinatieri with SDSU took a fake field goal and turned it into a TD to win Gold Rush in....2017 I think?

No.
My take is that for a punt, the best way to get a good return and prevent a fake is to block the offensive players at the line and not turn and run back to set up a return. Don't give them a free run 40 yards and try to block them. Let the return man have fewer bodies to avoid and less blocks in the back or holding calls.

[PortlandCat90]

If we look at the actual statistical facts we have pretty outstanding Special Teams:

Kickoff Returns
#1 in BSC by far
32 yards per return with 1 TD
+9 yards compared to opponents
Marqui is #1 in yards per return

Punt Returns
#2 in BSC
17 yards per return with 1 TD
Taco is #1 in yards per return

Kickoff Coverage
#7 in BSC with the most Kickoffs
2/3 have been touchbacks (nonreturnable)
#2 scoring offense but opponents have only returned 8 kickoffs

Punt Coverage
#10 in Net Punting with the 2nd Least Punts

FGs
5 – 8 (2 misses over 40; 1 miss over 50)

PATs
27 – 28 with the most PATs

[onceacat]

If we look at the actual statistical facts we have pretty outstanding Special Teams:

Kickoff Returns
#1 in BSC by far
32 yards per return with 1 TD
+9 yards compared to opponents
Marqui is #1 in yards per return

Punt Returns
#2 in BSC
17 yards per return with 1 TD
Taco is #1 in yards per return

Kickoff Coverage
#7 in BSC with the most Kickoffs
2/3 have been touchbacks (nonreturnable)
#2 scoring offense but opponents have only returned 8 kickoffs

Punt Coverage
#10 in Net Punting with the 2nd Least Punts

FGs
5 – 8 (2 misses over 40; 1 miss over 50)

PATs
27 – 28 with the most PATs

I don't think the issues that people are concerned about are going to show up in the stats. Also, That FG number is wrong because Glessner missed the 20 yarder at EWU.

A few things jump out to me...First, you are correct: Cats have a really strong kick & cover squad.

Second: The coaches make some really boneheaded decisions. Case in point was kicking a FG against EWU from the 2 yard line instead of going for it. Second case in point is the fake point after last night...As Davis was lining up, I was scratching my head as to why they were going for 1 instead of 2. Coaches should have had the Cats ready for that since it was pretty inexplicable that any coach anywhere would ever NOT go for 2 in that situation.

The fake punt was a coaching thing too (IMO). I think that Davis probably saw that the cats had a tendency to set up for the return & decided to make a really ballsy call on 4th & 20. But, also, at the 43, you should expect a team to go for it, even on 4th & long.

So what it looks like to me is that for whatever reasons, despite obviously being really good at most aspects of football, don't understand the most basic analytics (e.g. when to go for it on 4th & short, when to kick/defend a 2 point conversion, when to go for it rather than punt on 4th, etc)

[91catAlum]

Giving up the fake punt on 4th and 23 could've been the turning point in the game, and it could've easily changed things in Davis's favor. But thankfully the defense bailed us out with the pick on the very next play.

Having said that - it really was a risky- but- genius move by Davis. On 4th and 13 around the 35 yard line they line up in punt formation and take the intentional delay of game penalty, to fully sell that they are punting and just giving their punter more room. I think that threw everyone off guard. Gotta give them credit for that. Still, you hope to see the Cats with a little more awareness when a team is punting from beyond the 50 yard line.

[Bobcat4Ever]

I'm not trying to demean the special teams but I come with a question for some of you with better memories. Have we stopped any fake punts/field goals since Vinatieri with SDSU took a fake field goal and turned it into a TD to win Gold Rush in....2017 I think?

No.
My take is that for a punt, the best way to get a good return and prevent a fake is to block the offensive players at the line and not turn and run back to set up a return. Don't give them a free run 40 yards and try to block them. Let the return man have fewer bodies to avoid and less blocks in the back or holding calls.

That would be fun, to see Taco with more open space. Catch him if you can.

[CatBot]

Hawkins decided on a suicide mission and I'm not going to read too much into our readiness (or lack thereof). I didn't like the fact we had the runner stuffed a couple yards short, but let the kid bulldog his way to a first down. That sucked.

[Bobcat4Ever]

Giving up the fake punt on 4th and 23 could've been the turning point in the game, and it could've easily changed things in Davis's favor. But thankfully the defense bailed us out with the pick on the very next play.

Having said that - it really was a risky- but- genius move by Davis. On 4th and 13 around the 35 yard line they line up in punt formation and take the intentional delay of game penalty, to fully sell that they are punting and just giving their punter more room. I think that threw everyone off guard. Gotta give them credit for that. Still, you hope to see the Cats with a little more awareness when a team is punting from beyond the 50 yard line.

The announcers said something like “a shrewd move by an experienced coach” to give his punter more room. That hit my brain funny, as that move doesn’t require an experienced or shrewd coach, and all at once it thought shrewder move is a fake. (I don’t know if the procedure penalty played into it or was unplanned). I yelled to my wife across the room, “They’ve put us to sleep. It’s gonna be a fake!”. I hope she was impressed. On the turmoil of the sidelines it’s hard to see the forest sometime, but I wished for a comm channel for a few seconds. It was a good play call and execution by Coach Hawkins (1 or 2) and UCD.

[PortlandCat90]

If we look at the actual statistical facts we have pretty outstanding Special Teams:

Kickoff Returns
#1 in BSC by far
32 yards per return with 1 TD
+9 yards compared to opponents
Marqui is #1 in yards per return

Punt Returns
#2 in BSC
17 yards per return with 1 TD
Taco is #1 in yards per return

Kickoff Coverage
#7 in BSC with the most Kickoffs
2/3 have been touchbacks (nonreturnable)
#2 scoring offense but opponents have only returned 8 kickoffs

Punt Coverage
#10 in Net Punting with the 2nd Least Punts

FGs
5 – 8 (2 misses over 40; 1 miss over 50)

PATs
27 – 28 with the most PATs

I don't think the issues that people are concerned about are going to show up in the stats. Also, That FG number is wrong because Glessner missed the 20 yarder at EWU.

A few things jump out to me...First, you are correct: Cats have a really strong kick & cover squad.

Second: The coaches make some really boneheaded decisions. Case in point was kicking a FG against EWU from the 2 yard line instead of going for it. Second case in point is the fake point after last night...As Davis was lining up, I was scratching my head as to why they were going for 1 instead of 2. Coaches should have had the Cats ready for that since it was pretty inexplicable that any coach anywhere would ever NOT go for 2 in that situation.

The fake punt was a coaching thing too (IMO). I think that Davis probably saw that the cats had a tendency to set up for the return & decided to make a really ballsy call on 4th & 20. But, also, at the 43, you should expect a team to go for it, even on 4th & long.

So what it looks like to me is that for whatever reasons, despite obviously being really good at most aspects of football, don't understand the most basic analytics (e.g. when to go for it on 4th & short, when to kick/defend a 2 point conversion, when to go for it rather than punt on 4th, etc)

The FG number is correct. Glessner has missed:
54 yarder vs. McNeese
44 yarder vs. Morehead
19 yarder vs. EWU

Thus: 2 misses over 40 (54, 44) and one miss over 50 (54).

As opposed to: one miss 40-49 (44) and one miss 50-59 (54).

[Helcat72]

First of all, Davis was desperate. They threw everything but the proverbial kitchen sink at us. When was the last time somebody tried that many gimmick plays at us. After the fake punt we were probably looking for anything...except what they actually came up with next! I applaud Davis and their coaches for originality and execution. We won the game going away....but my observations are in a different direction.
Our kickers have a whole year under their belts. Leighton was the no. 2 highschool punter in the country! Shouldn't he be able to stop his punts inside the 10 like Padmos did? Shouldn't he be able to kick spirals that turn over and flip the field whenever he needs to. So far this year I think his punting has been pretty "middle of the pack".
Glessner has been pretty erratic. I'm not sure of his credentials out of highschool, but it seems like if we ever need him to win a game (especially if it's just an extra point). We need to cross our fingers.

[onceacat]

If we look at the actual statistical facts we have pretty outstanding Special Teams:

Kickoff Returns
#1 in BSC by far
32 yards per return with 1 TD
+9 yards compared to opponents
Marqui is #1 in yards per return

Punt Returns
#2 in BSC
17 yards per return with 1 TD
Taco is #1 in yards per return

Kickoff Coverage
#7 in BSC with the most Kickoffs
2/3 have been touchbacks (nonreturnable)
#2 scoring offense but opponents have only returned 8 kickoffs

Punt Coverage
#10 in Net Punting with the 2nd Least Punts

FGs
5 – 8 (2 misses over 40; 1 miss over 50)

PATs
27 – 28 with the most PATs

I don't think the issues that people are concerned about are going to show up in the stats. Also, That FG number is wrong because Glessner missed the 20 yarder at EWU.

A few things jump out to me...First, you are correct: Cats have a really strong kick & cover squad.

Second: The coaches make some really boneheaded decisions. Case in point was kicking a FG against EWU from the 2 yard line instead of going for it. Second case in point is the fake point after last night...As Davis was lining up, I was scratching my head as to why they were going for 1 instead of 2. Coaches should have had the Cats ready for that since it was pretty inexplicable that any coach anywhere would ever NOT go for 2 in that situation.

The fake punt was a coaching thing too (IMO). I think that Davis probably saw that the cats had a tendency to set up for the return & decided to make a really ballsy call on 4th & 20. But, also, at the 43, you should expect a team to go for it, even on 4th & long.

So what it looks like to me is that for whatever reasons, despite obviously being really good at most aspects of football, don't understand the most basic analytics (e.g. when to go for it on 4th & short, when to kick/defend a 2 point conversion, when to go for it rather than punt on 4th, etc)

The FG number is correct. Glessner has missed:
54 yarder vs. McNeese
44 yarder vs. Morehead
19 yarder vs. EWU

Thus: 2 misses over 40 (54, 44) and one miss over 50 (54).

As opposed to: one miss 40-49 (44) and one miss 50-59 (54).

Gotcha. That makes more sense.

[Long Time Cat]

Glessner is in a bit of a sophomore slump I think but will be fine. Sometimes a simple thing like the field goal that bonked off the upright and went through, last night, is just the thing to fix this slump. Only time will tell.

[BelligerentBobcat]

First of all, Davis was desperate. They threw everything but the proverbial kitchen sink at us. When was the last time somebody tried that many gimmick plays at us. After the fake punt we were probably looking for anything...except what they actually came up with next! I applaud Davis and their coaches for originality and execution. We won the game going away....but my observations are in a different direction.
Our kickers have a whole year under their belts. Leighton was the no. 2 highschool punter in the country! Shouldn't he be able to stop his punts inside the 10 like Padmos did? Shouldn't he be able to kick spirals that turn over and flip the field whenever he needs to. So far this year I think his punting has been pretty "middle of the pack".
Glessner has been pretty erratic. I'm not sure of his credentials out of highschool, but it seems like if we ever need him to win a game (especially if it's just an extra point). We need to cross our fingers.

Kicker ratings mean jack all. Just get the ones Bobby goes after.

[coloradocat]

How many FCS teams have kick coaches? It seems like we could use one to analyze/coach up our K/Ps.

We have two co-ST coordinators, neither of which has any experience. They don't coach the kickers (one of them mentioned this in an interview), they coach the kicking and return teams (essentially the blocking schemes and hypothetically fakes).

It feels like we could use a designated ST coordinator (with experience), who had that role as his sole on-field job and maybe a kicking game analyst (to at least pass notes to the coordinator to pass to the K/P). Both of those roles might be hard to come by at our level though which is likely why we are using a patchwork strategy.

[MSU01]

How many FCS teams have kick coaches? It seems like we could use one to analyze/coach up our K/Ps.

We have two co-ST coordinators, neither of which has any experience. They don't coach the kickers (one of them mentioned this in an interview), they coach the kicking and return teams (essentially the blocking schemes and hypothetically fakes).

It feels like we could use a designated ST coordinator (with experience), who had that role as his sole on-field job and maybe a kicking game analyst (to at least pass notes to the coordinator to pass to the K/P). Both of those roles might be hard to come by at our level though which is likely why we are using a patchwork strategy.

Virtually no teams have kicking coaches on staff. Many kickers and punters attend special camps and work with private coaches during the off-season though. I have seen Coach Vigen talking to Glessner during games about his mechanics, generally after he pulls a kickoff a bit too far to the left and out of bounds.

I feel like we Bobcat Nation armchair kickers may not have an accurate appreciation of just how tiny the difference is between nailing a field goal straight down the middle and doinking one off the upright, especially when you've got 11 guys coming at you trying to block the kick.

[HelenaCat]

For some folks who play golf, i equate it to a golf swing...a small error makes a big difference. And, no one is trying to smash me when i am playing golf!

[coloradocat]

How many FCS teams have kick coaches? It seems like we could use one to analyze/coach up our K/Ps.

We have two co-ST coordinators, neither of which has any experience. They don't coach the kickers (one of them mentioned this in an interview), they coach the kicking and return teams (essentially the blocking schemes and hypothetically fakes).

It feels like we could use a designated ST coordinator (with experience), who had that role as his sole on-field job and maybe a kicking game analyst (to at least pass notes to the coordinator to pass to the K/P). Both of those roles might be hard to come by at our level though which is likely why we are using a patchwork strategy.

Virtually no teams have kicking coaches on staff. Many kickers and punters attend special camps and work with private coaches during the off-season though. I have seen Coach Vigen talking to Glessner during games about his mechanics, generally after he pulls a kickoff a bit too far to the left and out of bounds.

I feel like we Bobcat Nation armchair kickers may not have an accurate appreciation of just how tiny the difference is between nailing a field goal straight down the middle and doinking one off the upright, especially when you've got 11 guys coming at you trying to block the kick.

Yeah, the kicking coach is more of a pipe dream. Gotta wonder if this explains the inconsistency seen at this level. I know there are only so many spots available on the staff and even less money.

On the pure ST coach item, does anyone know how the rest of the conference (and other perennial top 25 programs) handle this? Missoula is lucky enough that their HC is a glorified ST coach but outside of them I don't know how common a true role is.

[MSU01]

How many FCS teams have kick coaches? It seems like we could use one to analyze/coach up our K/Ps.

We have two co-ST coordinators, neither of which has any experience. They don't coach the kickers (one of them mentioned this in an interview), they coach the kicking and return teams (essentially the blocking schemes and hypothetically fakes).

It feels like we could use a designated ST coordinator (with experience), who had that role as his sole on-field job and maybe a kicking game analyst (to at least pass notes to the coordinator to pass to the K/P). Both of those roles might be hard to come by at our level though which is likely why we are using a patchwork strategy.

Virtually no teams have kicking coaches on staff. Many kickers and punters attend special camps and work with private coaches during the off-season though. I have seen Coach Vigen talking to Glessner during games about his mechanics, generally after he pulls a kickoff a bit too far to the left and out of bounds.

I feel like we Bobcat Nation armchair kickers may not have an accurate appreciation of just how tiny the difference is between nailing a field goal straight down the middle and doinking one off the upright, especially when you've got 11 guys coming at you trying to block the kick.

Yeah, the kicking coach is more of a pipe dream. Gotta wonder if this explains the inconsistency seen at this level. I know there are only so many spots available on the staff and even less money.

On the pure ST coach item, does anyone know how the rest of the conference (and other perennial top 25 programs) handle this? Missoula is lucky enough that their HC is a glorified ST coach but outside of them I don't know how common a true role is.

Here's the information for the Big Sky as per titles posted on the team websites:

No Special Teams Coordinator Listed: UM, Weber, EWU, PSU
Special Teams Coordinator who also coaches another position: NAU (RB), UNC (LB), Idaho (RB), ISU (TE), MSU (WR), Cal Poly (TE), Sac (TE),
Special Teams Coordinator + Analyst Position: UCD (Offensive Analyst)
Full-Time Special Teams Coordinator: None

[The MICKSTER]

I agree with 'tdub' in that, '....special teams has been a net positive' for the Cats this year. I also agree with 'tetoncat' that when you have a kickoff go out of bounds, a fake punt go for 20+ yards against you, and a fake extra point go for 2 and be successful in a single game, '....we can't do that down the stretch'.

I think Dan Hawkins saw on film and as the game progressed that in order for them to win they'd have to take some chances. In the 1st half they went for it on 4th & short near midfield and made it, but that wasn't a gamble most coaches would make unless you knew that you'd need to 'roll the dice' so-to-speak IMHO.

I think the 2 point conversion was especially troublesome for me because they were down 5 at that time.....there isn't much difference being down 5 or 4. but being down 3 instead is significant.......that was foreseeable.

Marqui and Taco are definitely weapons. GO CATS!!!

[tetoncat]

A positive is kickoffs. Only 8 returns allowed thru 5 games is good. Have to factor in a few out of bounds to that. Bit seems like we can consistently get ball into the end zone