Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Discuss anything and everything relating to Bobcat Football here.

Moderators: rtb, kmax, SonomaCat

Post Reply
BStinsMSU
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 468
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:38 pm
Location: Spokane

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by BStinsMSU » Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:18 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:54 am
BStinsMSU wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:36 am
catsrback76 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:58 am
I refuse to even read this thread. :coffee:
As soon as I saw an argument about what if I knew I’m probably best of to just stay out of it haha
You shouldn't have even made this one post. It's unintelligible. :wink:
Uff da. Maybe I should wake up a little more before I post. Best off* staying out of it. As I will do now


"It was like a coordinated effort by the Missoulian and the police to bring UM Football program down..." eGriz 11/30/12

Living on the KittieKop Legacy...

85CatGrad
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by 85CatGrad » Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:22 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:19 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:59 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:39 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:31 am

One player makes no difference? The Bulls lost Michael Jordan for two seasons and couldn't win a championship. Between winning three on either side of that. But, yeah, one player doesn't make any difference. The Bulls just weren't that good to begin with and those titles they won with Jordan were just a fluke. Got it.
I get the gist of your opinion, but this is a pretty big stretch of a comparison.

First, basketball is WAY different than football in which one player CAN make all the difference in the world. There are only 5 guys playing at once. Those Bulls teams were deep, but even they really only had about an 8-9 man rotation that played significant minutes.

Secondly, you literally took the best player to ever play the game of basketball to make a case of how they didn't win when he was gone. Is that really even in the same ballpark of losing a freshman QB starting his 4th game of his career on a football team that fields 22 starters and not 5 starters?
I read his post and knew someone would glom onto the basketball part of it. The point is that losing key players can make all the difference between winning and losing. Not that he or I are saying MSU’ would’ve won if he played all game but that’s true in Jordan’s case and many others. NE doesn’t win six Super Bowls without Brady. Alabama doesn’t win without Saban. Edmonton doesn’t win as much without Gretzky.

There are in all team sports literally hundreds of occasions of players retiring and getting hurt then their team tanking. QB is generally considered the most important position in all sports.
I’m not sure I’m glomming on anything. Just found it funny that the example was the best basketball player in the world not playing and how it resulted in his team losing. Basketball is nothing close to football in how losing one player can impact the team. And with all due respect to Tommy, comparing the best player to ever play professional basketball to a freshman not playing an FCS football game is not the same.

And again, with all due respect, using the greatest nfl qb to ever play and probably the greatest college coach to ever coach is not likely the same thing either. But I’ll concede that if our lines were much better that game, and Tommy was known as the Tom Brady of FCS, and we lost like we did I’d put a lot more emphasis on his absence.

As it stands it doesn’t matter anyway. My point was never that him going out of the game didn’t hurt us. It did and I’ve said as much. It was deflating and you could feel the bad energy in the stands and on the sideline. I just think the way we were playing in the trenches, even the best qb in FCS would have had a hard time winning. Some of you guys disagree and that’s ok too. 8)
"Hindsight is 20/20" my friend and you have eagle vision! Fact is you resisted acknowledging that Tommy going out of the game could have made a difference. Rather you hung your argument on the performance of the OL & DL after that deflating event, while continuing to minimize the impact Tommy would have had. You my friend hate to lose and when you do your word-smithing defense becomes transparently ridiculous.
Hard Stop!



TomCat88
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 19075
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:16 am
Location: An endless run of moguls

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by TomCat88 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:48 pm

BStinsMSU wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:18 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:54 am
BStinsMSU wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:36 am
catsrback76 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:58 am
I refuse to even read this thread. :coffee:
As soon as I saw an argument about what if I knew I’m probably best of to just stay out of it haha
You shouldn't have even made this one post. It's unintelligible. :wink:
Uff da. Maybe I should wake up a little more before I post. Best off* staying out of it. As I will do now
I wish gotten on your wavelength!


MSU - 15 team National Champions (most recent 2021); 57 individual National Champions (most recent 2023).
toM StUber

User avatar
Clinton T
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 401
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:30 pm
Location: Great Falls

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by Clinton T » Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:43 pm

Joe Bobcat wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:52 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:28 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:59 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:39 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:31 am

One player makes no difference? The Bulls lost Michael Jordan for two seasons and couldn't win a championship. Between winning three on either side of that. But, yeah, one player doesn't make any difference. The Bulls just weren't that good to begin with and those titles they won with Jordan were just a fluke. Got it.
I get the gist of your opinion, but this is a pretty big stretch of a comparison.

First, basketball is WAY different than football in which one player CAN make all the difference in the world. There are only 5 guys playing at once. Those Bulls teams were deep, but even they really only had about an 8-9 man rotation that played significant minutes.

Secondly, you literally took the best player to ever play the game of basketball to make a case of how they didn't win when he was gone. Is that really even in the same ballpark of losing a freshman QB starting his 4th game of his career on a football team that fields 22 starters and not 5 starters?
I read his post and knew someone would glom onto the basketball part of it. The point is that losing key players can make all the difference between winning and losing. Not that he or I are saying MSU’ would’ve won if he played all game but that’s true in Jordan’s case and many others. NE doesn’t win six Super Bowls without Brady. Alabama doesn’t win without Saban. Edmonton doesn’t win as much without Gretzky.

There are in all team sports literally hundreds of occasions of players retiring and getting hurt then their team tanking. QB is generally considered the most important position in all sports.
I honestly don't want this to sound condescending, and it is my opinion, but maybe pump the brakes in comparing Tommy's value to the team to that of Gretzky to the Oil, Brady to the Pats, Saban to Alabama, or MJ to the Bulls. It is overly simplistic, and frankly insulting to the rest of the team, to suggest Tommy was the main reason/catalyst as to why we made it to the chipper. Those guys are the BEST in the HISTORY of their respective sports. We won a lot of games the last three seasons with less-than-trancsendent QB talent. Choate mapped out the blueprint (and laid the foundation) for a strong defense and running game carrying us. He openly acknowledged he adopted the NDSU model. Vigen continues to stress the same principles. If the NDSU QB went down, do you feel we would have gained a significant advantage? I don't. The game is won in the trenches, and anyone would have a difficult time convincing me that QB play would have made a difference in that game. If Tom Brady played for us that game, he would have had his a$$ handed to him.
Wow, you tell people to pump the brakes and then you end with those last 2 sentences. Pump your own brakes!
First off basketball has fewer players so any star player that is either added or subtracted from a game would in general make a more significant difference than it would in the game of football. Having said that it doesn't mean that one player in or out can't make a substantial difference in a game of football. It is true that Mellott is not Tom Brady. So what? The important thing in the equation here is the difference between Mellot and his replacement. It goes beyond the physical of yards rushing or passing and scoring or time of possession, but also into the mindset of the rest of the team and the opponent as well. God bless Rovig for how he conducted himself through his whole career especially this year, but he just didn't bring to the game nearly what Mellott did, period. Every single NDSU fan that I know personally (7) and those I didn't know but talked with all said how the game would have been much different had Mellot been able to play, and they're right. At the same time no one can bring much weight to the argument that the W and L would've been flipped. No player should feel insulted to hear that Mellott as a starter played a major role in our success throughout the playoffs and losing him was unquestionably a significant blow to our chances at being competitive in that game.
You will not hear me say that Tommy going down didn't hurt us. It most certainly did, and I am not trying to minimize Tommy's talent (seems like the kid has it in spades). Where we disagree is to the extent which even phenomenal QB play would have helped us in that game. My opinion is that the line play was so one-sided that Tommy wouldn't have made much of a difference. You feel Tommy being in the game would have allowed us to sustain drives, keep the defense off of the field, and keep the score close. Look - neither of us really know what would have transpired. This is all guess work. You could be right. I could most certainly be wrong. I'm just an arm chair QB with a computer - my opinion really doesn't matter and nor should it. What we should both want is a team where we are not so reliant on one person. If we can dominate the trenches, we don't need an all-world QB at this level. From what I could tell, the NDSU QB wasn't nearly as talented as Tommy and he didn't need to be.



onceacat
BobcatNation Hall of Famer
Posts: 3615
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by onceacat » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 pm

Clinton T wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:43 pm
Joe Bobcat wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:52 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:28 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:59 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:39 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:31 am

One player makes no difference? The Bulls lost Michael Jordan for two seasons and couldn't win a championship. Between winning three on either side of that. But, yeah, one player doesn't make any difference. The Bulls just weren't that good to begin with and those titles they won with Jordan were just a fluke. Got it.
I get the gist of your opinion, but this is a pretty big stretch of a comparison.

First, basketball is WAY different than football in which one player CAN make all the difference in the world. There are only 5 guys playing at once. Those Bulls teams were deep, but even they really only had about an 8-9 man rotation that played significant minutes.

Secondly, you literally took the best player to ever play the game of basketball to make a case of how they didn't win when he was gone. Is that really even in the same ballpark of losing a freshman QB starting his 4th game of his career on a football team that fields 22 starters and not 5 starters?
I read his post and knew someone would glom onto the basketball part of it. The point is that losing key players can make all the difference between winning and losing. Not that he or I are saying MSU’ would’ve won if he played all game but that’s true in Jordan’s case and many others. NE doesn’t win six Super Bowls without Brady. Alabama doesn’t win without Saban. Edmonton doesn’t win as much without Gretzky.

There are in all team sports literally hundreds of occasions of players retiring and getting hurt then their team tanking. QB is generally considered the most important position in all sports.
I honestly don't want this to sound condescending, and it is my opinion, but maybe pump the brakes in comparing Tommy's value to the team to that of Gretzky to the Oil, Brady to the Pats, Saban to Alabama, or MJ to the Bulls. It is overly simplistic, and frankly insulting to the rest of the team, to suggest Tommy was the main reason/catalyst as to why we made it to the chipper. Those guys are the BEST in the HISTORY of their respective sports. We won a lot of games the last three seasons with less-than-trancsendent QB talent. Choate mapped out the blueprint (and laid the foundation) for a strong defense and running game carrying us. He openly acknowledged he adopted the NDSU model. Vigen continues to stress the same principles. If the NDSU QB went down, do you feel we would have gained a significant advantage? I don't. The game is won in the trenches, and anyone would have a difficult time convincing me that QB play would have made a difference in that game. If Tom Brady played for us that game, he would have had his a$$ handed to him.
Wow, you tell people to pump the brakes and then you end with those last 2 sentences. Pump your own brakes!
First off basketball has fewer players so any star player that is either added or subtracted from a game would in general make a more significant difference than it would in the game of football. Having said that it doesn't mean that one player in or out can't make a substantial difference in a game of football. It is true that Mellott is not Tom Brady. So what? The important thing in the equation here is the difference between Mellot and his replacement. It goes beyond the physical of yards rushing or passing and scoring or time of possession, but also into the mindset of the rest of the team and the opponent as well. God bless Rovig for how he conducted himself through his whole career especially this year, but he just didn't bring to the game nearly what Mellott did, period. Every single NDSU fan that I know personally (7) and those I didn't know but talked with all said how the game would have been much different had Mellot been able to play, and they're right. At the same time no one can bring much weight to the argument that the W and L would've been flipped. No player should feel insulted to hear that Mellott as a starter played a major role in our success throughout the playoffs and losing him was unquestionably a significant blow to our chances at being competitive in that game.
You will not hear me say that Tommy going down didn't hurt us. It most certainly did, and I am not trying to minimize Tommy's talent (seems like the kid has it in spades). Where we disagree is to the extent which even phenomenal QB play would have helped us in that game. My opinion is that the line play was so one-sided that Tommy wouldn't have made much of a difference. You feel Tommy being in the game would have allowed us to sustain drives, keep the defense off of the field, and keep the score close. Look - neither of us really know what would have transpired. This is all guess work. You could be right. I could most certainly be wrong. I'm just an arm chair QB with a computer - my opinion really doesn't matter and nor should it. What we should both want is a team where we are not so reliant on one person. If we can dominate the trenches, we don't need an all-world QB at this level. From what I could tell, the NDSU QB wasn't nearly as talented as Tommy and he didn't need to be.
I've mostly stayed out of this but someones gotta say it: If this TEAM was so deflated that the Offense (not to mention the D-Line getting manhandled, the ho-hum performance of the LBs & secondary...and the total and complete collapse on Special Teams) couldn't function when their QB went out...

Then it speaks volumes about a problem Vigen & the coaches need to fix ASAP. That isn't the culture that any of us thought this team had built, or the culture that let our D dominate SDSU with Okada & Benson both out.

So I hope everyone saying that the "team performed badly cause Tommy was out" is completely wrong. Because that sort of mental collapse isn't really reflective of the mental toughness that everyone thought this team had.



Joe Bobcat
Member # Retired
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:43 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by Joe Bobcat » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:21 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:48 pm
BStinsMSU wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:18 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:54 am
BStinsMSU wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:36 am
catsrback76 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:58 am
I refuse to even read this thread. :coffee:
As soon as I saw an argument about what if I knew I’m probably best of to just stay out of it haha
You shouldn't have even made this one post. It's unintelligible. :wink:
Uff da. Maybe I should wake up a little more before I post. Best off* staying out of it. As I will do now
I wish gotten on your wavelength!
I understood you completely. I have enough bad spellers and dyslexics in my family that your post was easy to decipher. :lol:


If you're looking for someone with a little authority, I'm your man. I have as little as anyone!

Joe Bobcat
Member # Retired
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:43 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by Joe Bobcat » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:09 pm

onceacat wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:43 pm
Joe Bobcat wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:52 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:28 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:59 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:39 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:31 am

One player makes no difference? The Bulls lost Michael Jordan for two seasons and couldn't win a championship. Between winning three on either side of that. But, yeah, one player doesn't make any difference. The Bulls just weren't that good to begin with and those titles they won with Jordan were just a fluke. Got it.
I get the gist of your opinion, but this is a pretty big stretch of a comparison.

First, basketball is WAY different than football in which one player CAN make all the difference in the world. There are only 5 guys playing at once. Those Bulls teams were deep, but even they really only had about an 8-9 man rotation that played significant minutes.

Secondly, you literally took the best player to ever play the game of basketball to make a case of how they didn't win when he was gone. Is that really even in the same ballpark of losing a freshman QB starting his 4th game of his career on a football team that fields 22 starters and not 5 starters?
I read his post and knew someone would glom onto the basketball part of it. The point is that losing key players can make all the difference between winning and losing. Not that he or I are saying MSU’ would’ve won if he played all game but that’s true in Jordan’s case and many others. NE doesn’t win six Super Bowls without Brady. Alabama doesn’t win without Saban. Edmonton doesn’t win as much without Gretzky.

There are in all team sports literally hundreds of occasions of players retiring and getting hurt then their team tanking. QB is generally considered the most important position in all sports.
I honestly don't want this to sound condescending, and it is my opinion, but maybe pump the brakes in comparing Tommy's value to the team to that of Gretzky to the Oil, Brady to the Pats, Saban to Alabama, or MJ to the Bulls. It is overly simplistic, and frankly insulting to the rest of the team, to suggest Tommy was the main reason/catalyst as to why we made it to the chipper. Those guys are the BEST in the HISTORY of their respective sports. We won a lot of games the last three seasons with less-than-trancsendent QB talent. Choate mapped out the blueprint (and laid the foundation) for a strong defense and running game carrying us. He openly acknowledged he adopted the NDSU model. Vigen continues to stress the same principles. If the NDSU QB went down, do you feel we would have gained a significant advantage? I don't. The game is won in the trenches, and anyone would have a difficult time convincing me that QB play would have made a difference in that game. If Tom Brady played for us that game, he would have had his a$$ handed to him.
Wow, you tell people to pump the brakes and then you end with those last 2 sentences. Pump your own brakes!
First off basketball has fewer players so any star player that is either added or subtracted from a game would in general make a more significant difference than it would in the game of football. Having said that it doesn't mean that one player in or out can't make a substantial difference in a game of football. It is true that Mellott is not Tom Brady. So what? The important thing in the equation here is the difference between Mellot and his replacement. It goes beyond the physical of yards rushing or passing and scoring or time of possession, but also into the mindset of the rest of the team and the opponent as well. God bless Rovig for how he conducted himself through his whole career especially this year, but he just didn't bring to the game nearly what Mellott did, period. Every single NDSU fan that I know personally (7) and those I didn't know but talked with all said how the game would have been much different had Mellot been able to play, and they're right. At the same time no one can bring much weight to the argument that the W and L would've been flipped. No player should feel insulted to hear that Mellott as a starter played a major role in our success throughout the playoffs and losing him was unquestionably a significant blow to our chances at being competitive in that game.
You will not hear me say that Tommy going down didn't hurt us. It most certainly did, and I am not trying to minimize Tommy's talent (seems like the kid has it in spades). Where we disagree is to the extent which even phenomenal QB play would have helped us in that game. My opinion is that the line play was so one-sided that Tommy wouldn't have made much of a difference. You feel Tommy being in the game would have allowed us to sustain drives, keep the defense off of the field, and keep the score close. Look - neither of us really know what would have transpired. This is all guess work. You could be right. I could most certainly be wrong. I'm just an arm chair QB with a computer - my opinion really doesn't matter and nor should it. What we should both want is a team where we are not so reliant on one person. If we can dominate the trenches, we don't need an all-world QB at this level. From what I could tell, the NDSU QB wasn't nearly as talented as Tommy and he didn't need to be.
I've mostly stayed out of this but someones gotta say it: If this TEAM was so deflated that the Offense (not to mention the D-Line getting manhandled, the ho-hum performance of the LBs & secondary...and the total and complete collapse on Special Teams) couldn't function when their QB went out...

Then it speaks volumes about a problem Vigen & the coaches need to fix ASAP. That isn't the culture that any of us thought this team had built, or the culture that let our D dominate SDSU with Okada & Benson both out.

So I hope everyone saying that the "team performed badly cause Tommy was out" is completely wrong. Because that sort of mental collapse isn't really reflective of the mental toughness that everyone thought this team had.
Coach Vigen and the entire team need to work on every facet of their game, culture included. I can guarantee that NDSU will be working on every facet of their game in preparation for next season. That's what champions do.
I don't question this team's mental toughness one bit.


If you're looking for someone with a little authority, I'm your man. I have as little as anyone!

ilovethecats
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 6509
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by ilovethecats » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:22 am

85CatGrad wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:22 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:19 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:59 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:39 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:31 am

One player makes no difference? The Bulls lost Michael Jordan for two seasons and couldn't win a championship. Between winning three on either side of that. But, yeah, one player doesn't make any difference. The Bulls just weren't that good to begin with and those titles they won with Jordan were just a fluke. Got it.
I get the gist of your opinion, but this is a pretty big stretch of a comparison.

First, basketball is WAY different than football in which one player CAN make all the difference in the world. There are only 5 guys playing at once. Those Bulls teams were deep, but even they really only had about an 8-9 man rotation that played significant minutes.

Secondly, you literally took the best player to ever play the game of basketball to make a case of how they didn't win when he was gone. Is that really even in the same ballpark of losing a freshman QB starting his 4th game of his career on a football team that fields 22 starters and not 5 starters?
I read his post and knew someone would glom onto the basketball part of it. The point is that losing key players can make all the difference between winning and losing. Not that he or I are saying MSU’ would’ve won if he played all game but that’s true in Jordan’s case and many others. NE doesn’t win six Super Bowls without Brady. Alabama doesn’t win without Saban. Edmonton doesn’t win as much without Gretzky.

There are in all team sports literally hundreds of occasions of players retiring and getting hurt then their team tanking. QB is generally considered the most important position in all sports.
I’m not sure I’m glomming on anything. Just found it funny that the example was the best basketball player in the world not playing and how it resulted in his team losing. Basketball is nothing close to football in how losing one player can impact the team. And with all due respect to Tommy, comparing the best player to ever play professional basketball to a freshman not playing an FCS football game is not the same.

And again, with all due respect, using the greatest nfl qb to ever play and probably the greatest college coach to ever coach is not likely the same thing either. But I’ll concede that if our lines were much better that game, and Tommy was known as the Tom Brady of FCS, and we lost like we did I’d put a lot more emphasis on his absence.

As it stands it doesn’t matter anyway. My point was never that him going out of the game didn’t hurt us. It did and I’ve said as much. It was deflating and you could feel the bad energy in the stands and on the sideline. I just think the way we were playing in the trenches, even the best qb in FCS would have had a hard time winning. Some of you guys disagree and that’s ok too. 8)
"Hindsight is 20/20" my friend and you have eagle vision! Fact is you resisted acknowledging that Tommy going out of the game could have made a difference. Rather you hung your argument on the performance of the OL & DL after that deflating event, while continuing to minimize the impact Tommy would have had. You my friend hate to lose and when you do your word-smithing defense becomes transparently ridiculous.
Hard Stop!
:lol:

You said this already. And when I asked you to show me where you went quiet. Because you couldn’t back up what you said.

I resisted acknowledging Tommy going out could have made a difference? When did I do that? Was it when I said the game could have been different with him playing? How about when I said him playing would have extended drives, resting our defense, and maybe they don’t give up 380 yards rushing.

Was it when I said his injury was deflating and you could feel it in the stands and see it on the sideline?

Next question. If anyone brings up any other aspect of the game that played a factor in the blowout besides Tommy getting hurt, is that also refusing to acknowledge the impact he had on the game? I’m sorry but that’s asinine.

I don’t know why you’re so worked up by my opinion. You think losing Tommy was the biggest factor. And by your standards I guess you refuse to acknowledge that us getting dominated in the trenches could have played a factor in the game. :lol:

I just disagree. You can call me whatever you want, it won’t change my opinion. Their offense did whatever they wanted to do against us. Their OL dominated us. And their defense shut us down. With a healthy Tommy it wouldn’t have been as bad. Which I’ve probably said over 10 times now. But it wouldn’t have mattered. Get owned on the lines, often times you get owned in the game. That’s what happened.

Appreciate the word smithing comment though. Never thought of myself as that. I certainly think Tomcat would disagree with that notion. But I’ll take it. Not sure it applies in anything I said about Tommy or our line play, but I’ll take it just the same!

Hard go! \:D/



85CatGrad
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by 85CatGrad » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:56 pm

Whatever dude. I will stand by my position that losing Tommy was the biggest factor. You can stand on your position that losing in the trenches was the biggest factor.

Your mom is calling... Time for supper. :)



Bizun 86
BobcatNation Redshirt
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:06 am

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by Bizun 86 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:40 pm

Clinton T wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:43 pm
Joe Bobcat wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:52 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:28 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:59 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:39 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:31 am

One player makes no difference? The Bulls lost Michael Jordan for two seasons and couldn't win a championship. Between winning three on either side of that. But, yeah, one player doesn't make any difference. The Bulls just weren't that good to begin with and those titles they won with Jordan were just a fluke. Got it.
I get the gist of your opinion, but this is a pretty big stretch of a comparison.

First, basketball is WAY different than football in which one player CAN make all the difference in the world. There are only 5 guys playing at once. Those Bulls teams were deep, but even they really only had about an 8-9 man rotation that played significant minutes.

Secondly, you literally took the best player to ever play the game of basketball to make a case of how they didn't win when he was gone. Is that really even in the same ballpark of losing a freshman QB starting his 4th game of his career on a football team that fields 22 starters and not 5 starters?
I read his post and knew someone would glom onto the basketball part of it. The point is that losing key players can make all the difference between winning and losing. Not that he or I are saying MSU’ would’ve won if he played all game but that’s true in Jordan’s case and many others. NE doesn’t win six Super Bowls without Brady. Alabama doesn’t win without Saban. Edmonton doesn’t win as much without Gretzky.

There are in all team sports literally hundreds of occasions of players retiring and getting hurt then their team tanking. QB is generally considered the most important position in all sports.
I honestly don't want this to sound condescending, and it is my opinion, but maybe pump the brakes in comparing Tommy's value to the team to that of Gretzky to the Oil, Brady to the Pats, Saban to Alabama, or MJ to the Bulls. It is overly simplistic, and frankly insulting to the rest of the team, to suggest Tommy was the main reason/catalyst as to why we made it to the chipper. Those guys are the BEST in the HISTORY of their respective sports. We won a lot of games the last three seasons with less-than-trancsendent QB talent. Choate mapped out the blueprint (and laid the foundation) for a strong defense and running game carrying us. He openly acknowledged he adopted the NDSU model. Vigen continues to stress the same principles. If the NDSU QB went down, do you feel we would have gained a significant advantage? I don't. The game is won in the trenches, and anyone would have a difficult time convincing me that QB play would have made a difference in that game. If Tom Brady played for us that game, he would have had his a$$ handed to him.
Wow, you tell people to pump the brakes and then you end with those last 2 sentences. Pump your own brakes!
First off basketball has fewer players so any star player that is either added or subtracted from a game would in general make a more significant difference than it would in the game of football. Having said that it doesn't mean that one player in or out can't make a substantial difference in a game of football. It is true that Mellott is not Tom Brady. So what? The important thing in the equation here is the difference between Mellot and his replacement. It goes beyond the physical of yards rushing or passing and scoring or time of possession, but also into the mindset of the rest of the team and the opponent as well. God bless Rovig for how he conducted himself through his whole career especially this year, but he just didn't bring to the game nearly what Mellott did, period. Every single NDSU fan that I know personally (7) and those I didn't know but talked with all said how the game would have been much different had Mellot been able to play, and they're right. At the same time no one can bring much weight to the argument that the W and L would've been flipped. No player should feel insulted to hear that Mellott as a starter played a major role in our success throughout the playoffs and losing him was unquestionably a significant blow to our chances at being competitive in that game.
You will not hear me say that Tommy going down didn't hurt us. It most certainly did, and I am not trying to minimize Tommy's talent (seems like the kid has it in spades). Where we disagree is to the extent which even phenomenal QB play would have helped us in that game. My opinion is that the line play was so one-sided that Tommy wouldn't have made much of a difference. You feel Tommy being in the game would have allowed us to sustain drives, keep the defense off of the field, and keep the score close. Look - neither of us really know what would have transpired. This is all guess work. You could be right. I could most certainly be wrong. I'm just an arm chair QB with a computer - my opinion really doesn't matter and nor should it. What we should both want is a team where we are not so reliant on one person. If we can dominate the trenches, we don't need an all-world QB at this level. From what I could tell, the NDSU QB wasn't nearly as talented as Tommy and he didn't need to be.
You guys are so funny. I'm here to predict that unless your boy Tommy learns how to throw with a fair deal of proficiency that he'll either not be your starter due to play and or he'll be sidelined due to another injury... Our QBs who both return are both better than Tommy. One can run with a great deal of speed and power plus is an above average passer. The other is an above average thrower as well as a very good runner. We will win the whole thing next year and that's a promise.



User avatar
RICO CAT
BobcatNation Letterman
Posts: 340
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:36 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by RICO CAT » Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:16 pm

Bizon 86, are you the one responsible for that giant beer cup snake I saw in the ndsu stands during the game? It was most impressive I must say!
Last edited by RICO CAT on Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.


“OVER THEM MOUNTAINS”

onceacat
BobcatNation Hall of Famer
Posts: 3615
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by onceacat » Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:12 am

Bizun 86 wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:40 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:43 pm
Joe Bobcat wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:52 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:28 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:59 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:39 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:31 am

One player makes no difference? The Bulls lost Michael Jordan for two seasons and couldn't win a championship. Between winning three on either side of that. But, yeah, one player doesn't make any difference. The Bulls just weren't that good to begin with and those titles they won with Jordan were just a fluke. Got it.
I get the gist of your opinion, but this is a pretty big stretch of a comparison.

First, basketball is WAY different than football in which one player CAN make all the difference in the world. There are only 5 guys playing at once. Those Bulls teams were deep, but even they really only had about an 8-9 man rotation that played significant minutes.

Secondly, you literally took the best player to ever play the game of basketball to make a case of how they didn't win when he was gone. Is that really even in the same ballpark of losing a freshman QB starting his 4th game of his career on a football team that fields 22 starters and not 5 starters?
I read his post and knew someone would glom onto the basketball part of it. The point is that losing key players can make all the difference between winning and losing. Not that he or I are saying MSU’ would’ve won if he played all game but that’s true in Jordan’s case and many others. NE doesn’t win six Super Bowls without Brady. Alabama doesn’t win without Saban. Edmonton doesn’t win as much without Gretzky.

There are in all team sports literally hundreds of occasions of players retiring and getting hurt then their team tanking. QB is generally considered the most important position in all sports.
I honestly don't want this to sound condescending, and it is my opinion, but maybe pump the brakes in comparing Tommy's value to the team to that of Gretzky to the Oil, Brady to the Pats, Saban to Alabama, or MJ to the Bulls. It is overly simplistic, and frankly insulting to the rest of the team, to suggest Tommy was the main reason/catalyst as to why we made it to the chipper. Those guys are the BEST in the HISTORY of their respective sports. We won a lot of games the last three seasons with less-than-trancsendent QB talent. Choate mapped out the blueprint (and laid the foundation) for a strong defense and running game carrying us. He openly acknowledged he adopted the NDSU model. Vigen continues to stress the same principles. If the NDSU QB went down, do you feel we would have gained a significant advantage? I don't. The game is won in the trenches, and anyone would have a difficult time convincing me that QB play would have made a difference in that game. If Tom Brady played for us that game, he would have had his a$$ handed to him.
Wow, you tell people to pump the brakes and then you end with those last 2 sentences. Pump your own brakes!
First off basketball has fewer players so any star player that is either added or subtracted from a game would in general make a more significant difference than it would in the game of football. Having said that it doesn't mean that one player in or out can't make a substantial difference in a game of football. It is true that Mellott is not Tom Brady. So what? The important thing in the equation here is the difference between Mellot and his replacement. It goes beyond the physical of yards rushing or passing and scoring or time of possession, but also into the mindset of the rest of the team and the opponent as well. God bless Rovig for how he conducted himself through his whole career especially this year, but he just didn't bring to the game nearly what Mellott did, period. Every single NDSU fan that I know personally (7) and those I didn't know but talked with all said how the game would have been much different had Mellot been able to play, and they're right. At the same time no one can bring much weight to the argument that the W and L would've been flipped. No player should feel insulted to hear that Mellott as a starter played a major role in our success throughout the playoffs and losing him was unquestionably a significant blow to our chances at being competitive in that game.
You will not hear me say that Tommy going down didn't hurt us. It most certainly did, and I am not trying to minimize Tommy's talent (seems like the kid has it in spades). Where we disagree is to the extent which even phenomenal QB play would have helped us in that game. My opinion is that the line play was so one-sided that Tommy wouldn't have made much of a difference. You feel Tommy being in the game would have allowed us to sustain drives, keep the defense off of the field, and keep the score close. Look - neither of us really know what would have transpired. This is all guess work. You could be right. I could most certainly be wrong. I'm just an arm chair QB with a computer - my opinion really doesn't matter and nor should it. What we should both want is a team where we are not so reliant on one person. If we can dominate the trenches, we don't need an all-world QB at this level. From what I could tell, the NDSU QB wasn't nearly as talented as Tommy and he didn't need to be.
You guys are so funny. I'm here to predict that unless your boy Tommy learns how to throw with a fair deal of proficiency that he'll either not be your starter due to play and or he'll be sidelined due to another injury... Our QBs who both return are both better than Tommy. One can run with a great deal of speed and power plus is an above average passer. The other is an above average thrower as well as a very good runner. We will win the whole thing next year and that's a promise.
Its been amusing to me to watch the fans embrace Tommy over the last 2 months...You are 100% correct that 1) TMS passing game is FAR below "average BSC QB" and 2) he needs to learn that sometimes its OK to hand the ball off instead of keep it.

I think the kid is totally raw...so yeah. You per 100% correct, if he doesn't learn to do those 2 things, its going to be an easy walk for you guys.

I just happen to think by the end of next year he will 1) be at least an average BSC passer and 2) learn not to take 20+ hits per game.

At whatever point he gets coached into that, I think the Cats are a legit 50-50 shot to win in Frisco.



TomCat88
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 19075
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:16 am
Location: An endless run of moguls

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:50 am

Mellott:
SHSU 6-11-0, 165, 2
SDSU 10-15-0, 233, 2
NDSU 2-3-0, 23, 0

I have a hard time holding the UTM (high winds) and regular season stats against him (low practice reps passing). So I think the numbers he put up against these three are more indicative of who he is as a passer. 18-29-0, 411, 4. That’s a passer rating of 226.4. I’ll also note that he still isn’t fully developed as a passer and that the three teams listed are among the best in the nation. One of the incomplete passes in the list was thrown on a blown right (plant foot) ankle.


MSU - 15 team National Champions (most recent 2021); 57 individual National Champions (most recent 2023).
toM StUber

User avatar
BelgradeBobcat
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 8131
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Belgrade, Montana

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:20 am

TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:50 am
Mellott:
SHSU 6-11-0, 165, 2
SDSU 10-15-0, 233, 2
NDSU 2-3-0, 23, 0

I have a hard time holding the UTM (high winds) and regular season stats against him (low practice reps passing). So I think the numbers he put up against these three are more indicative of who he is as a passer. 18-29-0, 411, 4. That’s a passer rating of 226.4. I’ll also note that he still isn’t fully developed as a passer and that the three teams listed are among the best in the nation. One of the incomplete passes in the list was thrown on a blown right (plant foot) ankle.
Bring in Portland State's Davis Alexander as a graduate assistant coach next season. Mellott could be that guy...with better personnel around him. When fully healthy Alexander was an absolute magician.



ilovethecats
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 6509
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by ilovethecats » Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:52 pm

85CatGrad wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:56 pm
Whatever dude. I will stand by my position that losing Tommy was the biggest factor. You can stand on your position that losing in the trenches was the biggest factor.

Your mom is calling... Time for supper. :)
Man I wish she could. Passed away last year. Weird comment.

But yes, to your other point that’s what I’ve been saying for two weeks. I just don’t get pissed at other peoples opinions. You think losing Tommy is what lost us the game. I think we could have had Tom Brady playing qb and if the play on the lines was the same, we still lose. Never seen an OL dominate us like that before.



onceacat
BobcatNation Hall of Famer
Posts: 3615
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by onceacat » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:02 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:50 am
Mellott:
SHSU 6-11-0, 165, 2
SDSU 10-15-0, 233, 2
NDSU 2-3-0, 23, 0

I have a hard time holding the UTM (high winds) and regular season stats against him (low practice reps passing). So I think the numbers he put up against these three are more indicative of who he is as a passer. 18-29-0, 411, 4. That’s a passer rating of 226.4. I’ll also note that he still isn’t fully developed as a passer and that the three teams listed are among the best in the nation. One of the incomplete passes in the list was thrown on a blown right (plant foot) ankle.
This might be less a critique of TM than the offensive game plan. But I don't think throwing up 50-50 balls to your stud WR counts as "great passing".

Im curious so see how he develops (as a passer), because I think its more than fair to say that in 29 passes, its not as though hes shown himself to be the next coming of Vernon Adams or Denarius McGhee.

He could certainly get there, but his passing skills (the ability to hit 60% plus on slants, outs, hooks, flys, etc) not to mention read complicated defensive schemes like the Gris, or to go through a series of reads has really ever even been tried out, let alone tested.

And, truth be told, it doesn't look to me like House wants to do anything other than run option & throw up 50-50 balls, so Tommy may never be required to do so. But I think even a cursory eye test makes it clear that TM, while clearly the most talented MT QB prospect since Blake Osweiler, isn't anywhere close to the passer that DM or VA or EB were.

Could he get there? Heck yeah. Vigen knows a thing or two about developing raw QB prospects. Should we be excited at the talent there? Yeah, for sure.

But its 100% fair to say that TMs passing game is still really underdeveloped right now.



TomCat88
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 19075
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:16 am
Location: An endless run of moguls

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:26 pm

onceacat wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:02 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:50 am
Mellott:
SHSU 6-11-0, 165, 2
SDSU 10-15-0, 233, 2
NDSU 2-3-0, 23, 0

I have a hard time holding the UTM (high winds) and regular season stats against him (low practice reps passing). So I think the numbers he put up against these three are more indicative of who he is as a passer. 18-29-0, 411, 4. That’s a passer rating of 226.4. I’ll also note that he still isn’t fully developed as a passer and that the three teams listed are among the best in the nation. One of the incomplete passes in the list was thrown on a blown right (plant foot) ankle.
This might be less a critique of TM than the offensive game plan. But I don't think throwing up 50-50 balls to your stud WR counts as "great passing".

Im curious so see how he develops (as a passer), because I think its more than fair to say that in 29 passes, its not as though hes shown himself to be the next coming of Vernon Adams or Denarius McGhee.

He could certainly get there, but his passing skills (the ability to hit 60% plus on slants, outs, hooks, flys, etc) not to mention read complicated defensive schemes like the Gris, or to go through a series of reads has really ever even been tried out, let alone tested.

And, truth be told, it doesn't look to me like House wants to do anything other than run option & throw up 50-50 balls, so Tommy may never be required to do so. But I think even a cursory eye test makes it clear that TM, while clearly the most talented MT QB prospect since Blake Osweiler, isn't anywhere close to the passer that DM or VA or EB were.

Could he get there? Heck yeah. Vigen knows a thing or two about developing raw QB prospects. Should we be excited at the talent there? Yeah, for sure.

But its 100% fair to say that TMs passing game is still really underdeveloped right now.
What are you basing your opinion on?


MSU - 15 team National Champions (most recent 2021); 57 individual National Champions (most recent 2023).
toM StUber

85CatGrad
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by 85CatGrad » Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:48 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:52 pm
85CatGrad wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:56 pm
Whatever dude. I will stand by my position that losing Tommy was the biggest factor. You can stand on your position that losing in the trenches was the biggest factor.

Your mom is calling... Time for supper. :)
Man I wish she could. Passed away last year. Weird comment.

But yes, to your other point that’s what I’ve been saying for two weeks. I just don’t get pissed at other peoples opinions. You think losing Tommy is what lost us the game. I think we could have had Tom Brady playing qb and if the play on the lines was the same, we still lose. Never seen an OL dominate us like that before.
Sorry to hear about your Mom. My seemly cute remark was in poor taste and I apologize. I lost my little brother about a year ago, so I feel your pain. He was a Griz and I miss being able to pick up the phone and shoot the ****** about Cats & Griz. In the end it's just a game in the grand scheme of life. Granted we are passionate, but we all need to remember we are on the same team. Peace be with you my friend.
Go CATS!



ilovethecats
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 6509
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by ilovethecats » Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:36 pm

85CatGrad wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:48 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:52 pm
85CatGrad wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:56 pm
Whatever dude. I will stand by my position that losing Tommy was the biggest factor. You can stand on your position that losing in the trenches was the biggest factor.

Your mom is calling... Time for supper. :)
Man I wish she could. Passed away last year. Weird comment.

But yes, to your other point that’s what I’ve been saying for two weeks. I just don’t get pissed at other peoples opinions. You think losing Tommy is what lost us the game. I think we could have had Tom Brady playing qb and if the play on the lines was the same, we still lose. Never seen an OL dominate us like that before.
Sorry to hear about your Mom. My seemly cute remark was in poor taste and I apologize. I lost my little brother about a year ago, so I feel your pain. He was a Griz and I miss being able to pick up the phone and shoot the ****** about Cats & Griz. In the end it's just a game in the grand scheme of life. Granted we are passionate, but we all need to remember we are on the same team. Peace be with you my friend.
Go CATS!
No worries at all! I didn’t take offense. Sorry about your brother. I lost my older brother years ago and it sucks!



iaafan
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 7177
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 12:44 pm

Re: Who does NDSU beat next year in Frisco?

Post by iaafan » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:20 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:52 pm
85CatGrad wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:56 pm
Whatever dude. I will stand by my position that losing Tommy was the biggest factor. You can stand on your position that losing in the trenches was the biggest factor.

Your mom is calling... Time for supper. :)
Man I wish she could. Passed away last year. Weird comment.

But yes, to your other point that’s what I’ve been saying for two weeks. I just don’t get pissed at other peoples opinions. You think losing Tommy is what lost us the game. I think we could have had Tom Brady playing qb and if the play on the lines was the same, we still lose. Never seen an OL dominate us like that before.
You must've been switching channels when we had the ball, because our OL didn't play as poorly as you're implying. Either that or you're so distraught with how their OL dominated our defense, that you're remembering our OL the same by osmosis. :)



Post Reply