Official Griz (and some of our own) apology thread

[crazycat]

OK. For all you people who smacked around the MSU football team over this Wright murder here's your opportunity to eat crow. The murder charges were dropped against former red-shirt Lebrum.

Actually the Associated Press should lead off. How many times did they tack onto the end of their stories a reference to MSU football and this murder?

I know, I know this doesn't get rid of the other issues (drugs, APR).

Man, this is nothing for MSU faithful to be proud of. Lebrum is a punk and has embarrassed the MSU athletics program and the school murder charge or not.

In case you haven't read the entire thread, and apparently you haven't, I've said that I'm NOT trying to portray Lebrum as a saint. But people, several Griz posters and some of our own, used this murder to portray MSU football in a bad light. Lebrum may be the biggest bum on the planet, but for those that insist on portraying him as a murderer and associating him with MSU football, I think this thread is pretty relevant. Say what you want about basketball. Miller actually played and was a star on the hoop team, unlike Lebrum who was a red-shirt for one year and never saw the field, let alone become a star.

The football program took a lot of flack for this crime. Now that it turns out the football program probably wasn't involved, the murder as it relates to anyone from the football program, may very well have not happened. Robbery? Yes. Murder? No. Robbery is a pretty heinous act, but it's not murder.

1) To say he had no involvement is very likely a huge assumption.
2) Someone doesn't have to be a 'star' to be part of the football program.
3) Expecting people to apologize for thinking a person is a murderer, when he may only be an accessory and was involved in the robbery that led to the murder, is probably not the best way to get people to move on. In fact, I would say it does a damn fine job of keeping it fresh in people's minds. But if that is what your goal was, then job well done.

I don't see a way anyone - the 3 individuals directly involved, the additional athletes indirectly involved, or MSU - comes out looking good.

1) Involved in what. He was completely involved in the robbery. The county attorney is saying he wasn't involved in the murder and the family appears to agree.
2) People were calling him a star, when in reality he was on the team as a red-shirt. Quite a disparity. Travis Lulay was a star. Is Lebrum in his class?
3) No it started as smack, so I didn't really expect an apology. I pretty much expected what I got. Quite a few people who are bummed out that their assumption of the case was probably incorrect. They wanted to believe that Lebrum (a person associated with MSU football) was a murderer. This is just a reminder of that. I don't think this post is prolonging any pain that MSU has suffered over this case. The damage has been done. Unfortunatley, nothing I post on this web site will ever change that. No one will come out looking good. That's a given.

[CARDIAC_CATS]

If this is what Bobcat smack has resorted to, I feel sorry for you.

I feel sorry for you that you didn't get the response you wanted the first time you posted this.

Basically this thread is to remind the people that were ripping on MSU football for having a player two years removed from the program supposedly murder someone. Some people, including the media, tried, and are still trying, to make Lebrum sound like he was an active member of the team when this happened. Of those some, including the media, were only doing this to bring down MSU football. Where are they now that the murder charges were dropped? Looks like a few are upset that they were dropped. Why? Because, 'aww shucks', it no longer links a murderer to MSU football.

Q2 news referred to Lebrum as a 'star' on the MSU football team when it reported the murder charges were dropped. A few fans seem pretty sure that Lebrum is only getting off due to a bungled investigation, even though the county attorney has said otherwise: He didn't say he couldn't find enough evidence to prosecute Lebrum, he said the evidence supported Lebrums's side of the story. The family of the murdered man supports the decision to drop the case. Add to that the fact that Miller has changed his story from fingering Lebrum to proclaiming himself guilty.

I'm not trying to paint Lebrum as a some kind of saint, just trying to set things straight on one scar against MSU football.

Here's an article on Miller's confession: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3181368 It's interesting to read now. At this time Miller seems to have begun caving in and confessing, but based on what the county attorney is saying now, not fully. It will be interesting to see what Miller's lawyer says regarding Lebrum having the charges dropped.

Yeah, Q2 is very bush league and often has an ajenda instead of reporting the actual sports news. I saw they said FOOTBALL STAR as well. Fair accurate to the point (HAHAHAHAHHAAHAHA).

KULR8's Chris Byers reports both the Cats/Griz very well and actually is professional.

[omahacat]

Why would anyone in their right mind be happy Lebrum is getting off on the murder charges. He is a loser who killed a drug dealer and he should be on death row. Too many errors by the idiots in Bozeman who call themselves District Attorneys.

This is not a good day for Bobcat football, it just brings up bad memories.

[crazycat]

Why would anyone in their right mind be happy Lebrum is getting off on the murder charges. He is a loser who killed a drug dealer and he should be on death row. Too many errors by the idiots in Bozeman who call themselves District Attorneys.

This is not a good day for Bobcat football, it just brings up bad memories.

I take it you hit submit on accident, because you obviously must have forgeotten to add the enlightening information that supports your claims.

[crazycat]

Also new in this murder case are court documents that say shoes taken as evidence will be sent to a forensic expert in Florida.
All of the shoes seized from John Lebrum, Branden Miller and Jason Wright will be sent to one of the world's best footwear impression experts for further analysis.
While the Montana State Crime Lab in Missoula has already examined the shoes, Lebrum's lawyer says the defense wants expert testimony to dispute any notion that shoe imprints found near Wright's body could have been made by Lebrum.

I realize that Lebrum could've been wearing some other shoes, but according to this, the shoes were sent to Missoula and all of Lebrum's shoes were ruled to not have been at the scene. The defense wanted to take it one step further and sent them to Florida to make sure that no one could say they were. This happened back in mid-February, so it could be that the Florida experts confirmed this and that this is part of the evidence that led to the recent dismissal of the murder charge against Lebrum.

[crazycat]

Also in much earlier proceedings (Oct. 2006) Lambert and the Bozeman Chronicle wanted to release the statement from Lebrum to the public. They said the statements wouldn’t affect their right to a fair trial.

You can take this a couple ways. One is that Lebrum didn’t say anything overly damaging to his case or else Lambert and the BC would never had requested making the record public.

It was also at this time that Avignone had begun arguing that Lebrum’s statements were obtained illegally and should be suppressed.

[tampa_griz]

Why would anyone in their right mind be happy Lebrum is getting off on the murder charges. He is a loser who killed a drug dealer and he should be on death row. Too many errors by the idiots in Bozeman who call themselves District Attorneys.

Exactly. Anyone that believes Lebrum told Miller "goodbye and good luck with that dude in your trunk" or that Lebrum's attorney wanted statements suppressed that cleared Lebrum in the kidnap/murder isn't very smart.

[crazycat]

Why would anyone in their right mind be happy Lebrum is getting off on the murder charges. He is a loser who killed a drug dealer and he should be on death row. Too many errors by the idiots in Bozeman who call themselves District Attorneys.

Exactly. Anyone that believes Lebrum told Miller "goodbye and good luck with that dude in your trunk" or that Lebrum's attorney wanted statements suppressed that cleared Lebrum in the kidnap/murder isn't very smart.

Apparently you still haven't read the story attached to this thread. The suppressed statements aren't the only thing that cleared Lebrum. According to the county attorney and would-be prosecutor in this case, the evidence matched up with Lebrum's story. It appears they didn't find any shoe prints that were the same size or style of Lebrum's. And the family isn't going to be too cool with it, as they say they are, if the county attorney lets the killer of their son go.

As for the suppressed statement, do you really believe that the judge allowed the initial statement to be supressed if it hadn't been obtained illegally? From what I've read it takes more than just a casual notion to get a statement suppressed. Miranda has some wiggle room.

BTW, I do believe that Lebrum's attorney wanted statements suppressed that cleared Lebrum. I think everyone does, except maybe you. Is that what you meant to say? Or are you just not smart enough to write what you're thinking.

I'm not going to speculate as to what I think really happened. It'll all come out. Right now all you can go on is the best available information and it's in Lebrum's favor. We'll find out more in the coming days.

[tampa_griz]

Why would anyone in their right mind be happy Lebrum is getting off on the murder charges. He is a loser who killed a drug dealer and he should be on death row. Too many errors by the idiots in Bozeman who call themselves District Attorneys.

Exactly. Anyone that believes Lebrum told Miller "goodbye and good luck with that dude in your trunk" or that Lebrum's attorney wanted statements suppressed that cleared Lebrum in the kidnap/murder isn't very smart.

As for the suppressed statement, do you really believe that the judge allowed the initial statement to be supressed if it hadn't been obtained illegally? From what I've read it takes more than just a casual notion to get a statement suppressed. Miranda has some wiggle room.

Please. Just because law enforcement obtained statements outside of Miranda doesn't mean someone is innocent. When John Couey kidnapped, raped, and buried alive Jessica Lunsford the police (acting on the possibility that she might still be alive) pressured him into confessing even though he'd asked for an attorney. So his statements were successfully suppressed by his defense attorney. He was still convicted because they found her body in his yard as well as a ton of other physical evidence.

No, defense attorneys do not suppress statements by their clients claiming innocence. They challenge the legality of the statements that implicate their clients. Any attorney that does otherwise, or anyone that believes that a defense attorney asks to suppress statements of innocence, isn't very smart.

[crazycat]

Why would anyone in their right mind be happy Lebrum is getting off on the murder charges. He is a loser who killed a drug dealer and he should be on death row. Too many errors by the idiots in Bozeman who call themselves District Attorneys.

Exactly. Anyone that believes Lebrum told Miller "goodbye and good luck with that dude in your trunk" or that Lebrum's attorney wanted statements suppressed that cleared Lebrum in the kidnap/murder isn't very smart.

As for the suppressed statement, do you really believe that the judge allowed the initial statement to be supressed if it hadn't been obtained illegally? From what I've read it takes more than just a casual notion to get a statement suppressed. Miranda has some wiggle room.

Please. Just because law enforcement obtained statements outside of Miranda doesn't mean someone is innocent. When John Couey kidnapped, raped, and buried alive Jessica Lunsford the police (acting on the possibility that she might still be alive) pressured him into confessing even though he'd asked for an attorney. So his statements were successfully suppressed by his defense attorney. He was still convicted because they found her body in his yard as well as a ton of other physical evidence.

No, defense attorneys do not suppress statements by their clients claiming innocence. They challenge the legality of the statements that implicate their clients. Any attorney that does otherwise, or anyone that believes that a defense attorney asks to suppress statements of innocence, isn't very smart.

I realize this about Miranda and its not really a key point in this case. The reason I bring it up is to simply point out that Miranda (despite what you see on TV), or the lack of reading Miranda, doesn't completely block out or automatically include anything a person says. It's not that black and white. There are exceptions. Are we not agreeing on this. I don't understand your 'please!' response. You just said what I said. Miranda has nothing to do with innocence or guilt. It's simply to inform the arrested party of their rights. And what they say "can" or "may" (not will)be used against them. The suppression of Lebrum's statement was not used as the sole reason to drop the murder charge by Lambert.

That's a good example to show your point about Miranda. But I'm waiting for something that explains the more powerful events. Such as why Lambert, the county attorney, is saying that the evidence supports Lebrum OR why he didn't put it another way and say they have no evidence to continue seeking a case against Lebrum. (There's difference between putting it those two ways). And how the shoe evidence (other than they couldn't find the shoes he wore that night) does not include Lebrum. And why the family says they support Lambert dropping the murder charge against Lebrum. And why the AG's office refused to appeal the suppression. These are all pretty strong items in Lebrum's defense.

I have a hard time believing that Lambert would drop the case just because he can no longer use Lebrums initial statement against him. If a guy is being blamed by the other arrestee...well that's it...the only thing on Lebrum in terms of murder is that he's being blamed by Miller. No one from the county attorney's office has said there is any evidence against Lebrum.

At this point, based on what's happened in the courtroom, it looks like Miller and Lebrum robbed Wright and Lebrum bailed after that. Lebrum either took part of the robbery money and left on foot or by some other means and Miller (and possibly somene else) somehow convinced Wright to get in the truck (probably at gunpoint). He then took Wright to the test field where the murder took place.

Miller still says he wasn't the triggerman. However he has said he was there and that he bought the murder weapon. From what I understand his fingerprints are the only ones on the murder weapon.

Still no evidence against Lebrum and the evidence that does exist supports his side of the story.

[tampa_griz]

I realize this about Miranda and its not really a key point in this case.

It's a very key point in this case. His statements implicating himself in the kidnap and murder of Mr. Wright after he helped rob him were successfully challenged by his attorney and led to the dismissal of those charges.

The suppression of Lebrum's statement was not used as the sole reason to drop the murder charge by Lambert.

It was the only evidence besides his statements of his cooperation in the robbery, kidnap, and eventual murder of Mr. Wright that they had.

But I'm waiting for something that explains the more powerful events.

The "most powerful events" are the ones your own brain has to assume in order to conclude Lebrum's non-involvement in Mr. Wright's kidnap and murder after he helped the now-decided trigger man rob him. Think about it. Do you honestly believe Miller looked at Lebrum and said, "Thanks for helping me rob him. Here's your $130 split. I sure I hope I can convince him to get into my car all by myself so I can drive him to a field and blow his brains out. Wish me luck bro. Don't spend it all in one place." That's pretty much what would've have to have happen for Lebrum to be uninvolved. Those are some pretty "powerful events" don't ya think? Use your head once in a while. It'll inspire some pretty miraculous events. Trust me on this one.

......the county attorney, is saying that the evidence supports Lebrum

Nothing supports Lebrum. His statements implicating himself had to be tossed based on Miranda.

[BigBruceBaker]

I dont pretend to know all the legal situations surrounding this case. Fortuntatly for Lebrum there were some problems with the miranda rights and he got lucky in a couple other factors such as the shoes. I dont know why Miller would continuously say that Lebrum was the triggerman if he wasnt. Also can we all agree that both of these guys are BAD dudes as in they are stupid asses and wanna be thugs. I personally believe Lebrum is the worst of the two...but what would i know only meeting them several times each? Also Just because we are letting him off the hook doesnt mean he is completely innocent. And those statements being suppressed are a huge deal because he had implicated himself in them.

[crazycat]

I realize this about Miranda and its not really a key point in this case.

It's a very key point in this case. His statements implicating himself in the kidnap and murder of Mr. Wright after he helped rob him were successfully challenged by his attorney and led to the dismissal of those charges.

The suppression of Lebrum's statement was not used as the sole reason to drop the murder charge by Lambert.

It was the only evidence besides his statements of his cooperation in the robbery, kidnap, and eventual murder of Mr. Wright that they had.

But I'm waiting for something that explains the more powerful events.

The "most powerful events" are the ones your own brain has to assume in order to conclude Lebrum's non-involvement in Mr. Wright's kidnap and murder after he helped the now-decided trigger man rob him. Think about it. Do you honestly believe Miller looked at Lebrum and said, "Thanks for helping me rob him. Here's your $130 split. I sure I hope I can convince him to get into my car all by myself so I can drive him to a field and blow his brains out. Wish me luck bro. Don't spend it all in one place." That's pretty much what would've have to have happen for Lebrum to be uninvolved. Those are some pretty "powerful events" don't ya think? Use your head once in a while. It'll inspire some pretty miraculous events. Trust me on this one.

......the county attorney, is saying that the evidence supports Lebrum

Nothing supports Lebrum. His statements implicating himself had to be tossed based on Miranda.

The reason I say Miranda is not a key point is because I'm assuming Lebrum was read his Miranda Warning and it had no teeth. Given that and the fact his statement was suppressed Miranda has played little or no role. I assume they told him as part of his Miranda Warning that he had a right to an attorney and they are saying he waived that right. Despite all this his statement was suppressed, because he didn't have an attorney present. Even though they told him he had a right to one? So given all that, Miranda didn't play a big role in what has transpired.

I said the suppression of the statement wasn't the sole reason to drop the murder charge. You say it's the only evidence besides his statements they had. I assume you mean any 'other' statements beside his initial statement he made. Again, Lambert has said in the press that the evidence supports Lebrum's story.

It's not at all difficult to imagine someone getting cold feet in the middle of a crime and taking off. One of the UM football players involved in the house robbing, kidnapping that occured in Missoula last year did that exact thing. He split when things got a little too weird for him. I don't think it's too hard to get someone to do something when you point a gun at their head. I'm pretty sure Wright (or anyone) would've agreed to do just about anything Miller said. Miller could've baited to come with him by telling him they'd get this all worked out. Miller could've called someone else who was upset with Wright and picked him up before going to the field. All kinds of things can happen when a gun is pointed at your head. Lebrum didn't need Miller's permission to leave. He had a gun, too. He could've simply bolted when Miller was preoccupied, like when he was holding a gun on Wright and didn't want him to get away. I don't think what you're describing is a powerful event in the same definition as what I used that term for. My definition was applied to events that have actually occured, while you're applying that term to your own speculation. You're merely throwing things out there now. If you stick to the latest printed/reported details of this, you'll have a hard time make the assumptions you've made.

You saved your best for last: "Nothing supports Lebrum" is your response to the county attorney's word that evidence supports Lebrum. You can only take this to mean that there is evidence supporting Lebrum. The only evidence that didn't support Lebrum would have been in his initial statement, which we don't know what he said and which was illegally obtained to a point the judge had to suppress it.

So the strongest evidence would be some illegally obtained evidence and that's what you want to use to put in a man in jail for murder? That's you're idea of justice, using illegally obtained information to get a guilty verdict. Nice.

[crazycat]

I dont pretend to know all the legal situations surrounding this case. Fortuntatly for Lebrum there were some problems with the miranda rights and he got lucky in a couple other factors such as the shoes. I dont know why Miller would continuously say that Lebrum was the triggerman if he wasnt. Also can we all agree that both of these guys are BAD dudes as in they are stupid asses and wanna be thugs. I personally believe Lebrum is the worst of the two...but what would i know only meeting them several times each? Also Just because we are letting him off the hook doesnt mean he is completely innocent. And those statements being suppressed are a huge deal because he had implicated himself in them.

We all agree they are bad dudes. They've admitted as much. You have a right to your opinions. We all do. Lebrum isn't completely innocent. He's done some rotten things in his life and he's going to prison for it. His statements are a big deal, but the Miranda Warning he was given (if he was given one, I assume he was) didn't amount to squat. The judge either completely ignored Miranda or something else of great significance happened during that interview that could not be allowed into evidence. The Attorney General's office reviewed it and told the county attorney that they would not appeal the judge's decision to suppress that statements from the initial interview. You must then conclude that something very wrong happened to Lebrum during that interview. It could be that they coerced a story out of him that implicated him in the murder. But despite all of that there is evidence that supports Lebrum's story, as stated by the county attorney Lambert, not Lebrum's attorney, the county attorney. The county attorney was the one seeking to have Lebrum found guilty of murder.

[crazycat]

http://www.innocenceproject.org/underst ... ssions.php

Here's some general information about false confessions and interogation. I'm not saying that Lebrum confessed, but if you think he did, this might shed some light on how that may have occured.

[GrizinWashington]

I may be alone on this one, cc, but I believe that 2 full pages defending the true blight on society that is Mr. Lebrum is plenty sufficient.

[BigBruceBaker]

I dont pretend to know all the legal situations surrounding this case. Fortuntatly for Lebrum there were some problems with the miranda rights and he got lucky in a couple other factors such as the shoes. I dont know why Miller would continuously say that Lebrum was the triggerman if he wasnt. Also can we all agree that both of these guys are BAD dudes as in they are stupid asses and wanna be thugs. I personally believe Lebrum is the worst of the two...but what would i know only meeting them several times each? Also Just because we are letting him off the hook doesnt mean he is completely innocent. And those statements being suppressed are a huge deal because he had implicated himself in them.

We all agree they are bad dudes. They've admitted as much. You have a right to your opinions. We all do. Lebrum isn't completely innocent. He's done some rotten things in his life and he's going to prison for it. His statements are a big deal, but the Miranda Warning he was given (if he was given one, I assume he was) didn't amount to squat. The judge either completely ignored Miranda or something else of great significance happened during that interview that could not be allowed into evidence. The Attorney General's office reviewed it and told the county attorney that they would not appeal the judge's decision to suppress that statements from the initial interview. You must then conclude that something very wrong happened to Lebrum during that interview. It could be that they coerced a story out of him that implicated him in the murder. But despite all of that there is evidence that supports Lebrum's story, as stated by the county attorney Lambert, not Lebrum's attorney, the county attorney. The county attorney was the one seeking to have Lebrum found guilty of murder.

Very true. After re-reading the story i do agree that it seems like they probably coerced a confession from him....or somethin along those lines. But i still believe he was in some way connected to the murder. Especially after hearing the grizzly details that werent released in the paper. But all agree no matter what the opinion that it is a good thing both of these fu**ups are gonna be gettin somethin pounded for quite awhile in prison.

[tampa_griz]

So the strongest evidence would be some illegally obtained evidence and that's what you want to use to put in a man in jail for murder? That's you're idea of justice, using illegally obtained information to get a guilty verdict. Nice.

Actually I hadn't weighed in on the legality of his statements implicating himself in the kidnap and murder. But I don't blame ya for changing the argument.

[crazycat]

So the strongest evidence would be some illegally obtained evidence and that's what you want to use to put in a man in jail for murder? That's you're idea of justice, using illegally obtained information to get a guilty verdict. Nice.

Actually I hadn't weighed in on the legality of his statements implicating himself in the kidnap and murder. But I don't blame ya for changing the argument.

I can only assume that you're just kidding about changing the argument, because the legality of his statements (i.e. suppression) is something you keep bringing it up and I respond to. Responding to your statements isn't changing the subject.

I'm at least indifferent to wanting to change the subject to this, because the other events that have occured (county attorney's statement, the evidence and the Wright family's response) are all more powerful than the suppression ruling. Had the judge not suppressed the statement, it still seems like Lebrum would've been found not guilty based on the evidence supporting him (as Lambert indicated) and the lack of evidence against him (the shoe test results).

But while we're on the subject....

The attorney general’s office has decided not to hear an appeal of the judge’s ruling to suppress Lebrum's initial statement. Is that not enough to make it obvious that something about how the statement was obtained was improper. If not, what would have to occur to satisfy you that the statement needed to be suppressed. You seem to not be giving the judge and AG's office the benefit of the doubt here. As if they'd just let some very minor technicality override a very detailed admission of guilt, which neither is the case.

It should be reasonably obvious, based on the judge's and AG's decisions, that some more than minor infraction occured during the interrogation of Lebrum and/or that whatever he said to implicate himself was fairly harmless, yet would've allowed the prosecution the ability to unfairly incriminate him at trial. Miranda or no Miranda, statements, should the judge deem so, can be used against you depending on what and how you say them and the environment you say them in.

[tampa_griz]

I can only assume that you're just kidding about changing the argument, because the legality of his statements (i.e. suppression) is something you keep bringing it up and I respond to. Responding to your statements isn't changing the subject.

I'm at least indifferent to wanting to change the subject to this, because the other events that have occured (county attorney's statement, the evidence and the Wright family's response) are all more powerful than the suppression ruling. Had the judge not suppressed the statement, it still seems like Lebrum would've been found not guilty based on the evidence supporting him (as Lambert indicated) and the lack of evidence against him (the shoe test results).

But while we're on the subject....

The attorney general’s office has decided not to hear an appeal of the judge’s ruling to suppress Lebrum's initial statement. Is that not enough to make it obvious that something about how the statement was obtained was improper. If not, what would have to occur to satisfy you that the statement needed to be suppressed. You seem to not be giving the judge and AG's office the benefit of the doubt here. As if they'd just let some very minor technicality override a very detailed admission of guilt, which neither is the case.

It should be reasonably obvious, based on the judge's and AG's decisions, that some more than minor infraction occured during the interrogation of Lebrum and/or that whatever he said to implicate himself was fairly harmless, yet would've allowed the prosecution the ability to unfairly incriminate him at trial. Miranda or no Miranda, statements, should the judge deem so, can be used against you depending on what and how you say them and the environment you say them in.

Like I said, I don't blame you for changing the changing the subject about the suppression of Lebrum's statements implicating himself in the robbery/kidnap/murder of Mr. Wright. I would too if I was trying to further your argument. It's no coincidence his attorney moved to have Lebrum's statements implicating himself in the robbery/kidnap/murder of Mr. Wright.