Lance Armstrong ... doping

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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by allcat » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:29 pm

If you focus on the no names, you get no press. Focus on the names and you look like you are after everybody.


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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by John K » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:51 pm

allcat wrote:If you focus on the no names, you get no press. Focus on the names and you look like you are after everybody.
I think there's a little more to it than that. Most baseball fans probably didn't get their knickers in a twist about a few players who used PED and hit 40 HR in a season instead of the 30 that they might have had without PED. But if Barry Bonds was artificially aided in his pursuit of the single season and career HR records, that is rightfully considered a little more significant, and I think that same rationale applies to the sport of cycling.



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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by SonomaCat » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:36 pm

allcat wrote:If you focus on the no names, you get no press. Focus on the names and you look like you are after everybody.
Or, to look at it another way, if you know that a lot of students are cheating on the SAT, do you go after the ones whose cheating-aided scores were 1,400 and allowed them entry into Harvard, or the ones who cheated but still only pulled an 800?



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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by TIrwin24 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:38 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:
allcat wrote:If you focus on the no names, you get no press. Focus on the names and you look like you are after everybody.
Or, to look at it another way, if you know that a lot of students are cheating on the SAT, do you go after the ones whose cheating-aided scores were 1,400 and allowed them entry into Harvard, or the ones who cheated but still only pulled an 800?
Harvard sucks anyways. They are too lame to even play in the FCS playoffs :wink:


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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by MashTun » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:17 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
allcat wrote:If you focus on the no names, you get no press. Focus on the names and you look like you are after everybody.
Or, to look at it another way, if you know that a lot of students are cheating on the SAT, do you go after the ones whose cheating-aided scores were 1,400 and allowed them entry into Harvard, or the ones who cheated but still only pulled an 800?
Suppose you're right, subject all to the same scrutiny regardless of achievment may suggest a terrible thing like...integrity :-^ :wink:


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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by John K » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:42 pm

But they are going after other riders, in addition to Armtstrong...right? Aren't these former teammates getting a "deal" in their own PED cases, in exchange for their testimony against Armstrong? That would indicate that he's not being singled out for prosecution, while everyone else gets a pass. You could argue that it's not fair to punish the others more leniently, so that they can nail Armstrong, but that sort of thing goes on all the time in our criminal justice system...negotiating plea deals with the small fish so that they can get enough evidence to convict the big fish.



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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by MashTun » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:57 pm

John K wrote:But they are going after other riders, in addition to Armtstrong...right? Aren't these former teammates getting a "deal" in their own PED cases, in exchange for their testimony against Armstrong? That would indicate that he's not being singled out for prosecution, while everyone else gets a pass. You could argue that it's not fair to punish the others more leniently, so that they can nail Armstrong, but that sort of thing goes on all the time in our criminal justice system...negotiating plea deals with the small fish so that they can get enough evidence to convict the big fish.
I haven't seen anything of the sort.

Two of the riders believed to have given testimony( testifying as to eactly what/when has not been released) are George Hincapie(rode all Lance's TDF wins) and Levi Leipheimer(rode with on 2 wins) have never been mentioned in any PED investigation. Assuming guilt because they testify? Yikes.


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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by John K » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:10 pm

MashTun wrote:
John K wrote:But they are going after other riders, in addition to Armtstrong...right? Aren't these former teammates getting a "deal" in their own PED cases, in exchange for their testimony against Armstrong? That would indicate that he's not being singled out for prosecution, while everyone else gets a pass. You could argue that it's not fair to punish the others more leniently, so that they can nail Armstrong, but that sort of thing goes on all the time in our criminal justice system...negotiating plea deals with the small fish so that they can get enough evidence to convict the big fish.
I haven't seen anything of the sort.

Two of the riders believed to have given testimony( testifying as to eactly what/when has not been released) are George Hincapie(rode all Lance's TDF wins) and Levi Leipheimer(rode with on 2 wins) have never been mentioned in any PED investigation. Assuming guilt because they testify? Yikes.
No, I distinctly remember reading (I don't remember where...it may have just been a piece in the local paper) that at least some of Armstrong's teammates were facing PED-related sanctions themselves, but they were being offered relatively light punishments, in exchange for their testimony against Armstrong. I believe that both Hincapie and Leipheimer were mentioned by name in that article, but I wouldn't swear to that.



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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by MashTun » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:23 pm

John K wrote:
MashTun wrote:
John K wrote:But they are going after other riders, in addition to Armtstrong...right? Aren't these former teammates getting a "deal" in their own PED cases, in exchange for their testimony against Armstrong? That would indicate that he's not being singled out for prosecution, while everyone else gets a pass. You could argue that it's not fair to punish the others more leniently, so that they can nail Armstrong, but that sort of thing goes on all the time in our criminal justice system...negotiating plea deals with the small fish so that they can get enough evidence to convict the big fish.
I haven't seen anything of the sort.

Two of the riders believed to have given testimony( testifying as to eactly what/when has not been released) are George Hincapie(rode all Lance's TDF wins) and Levi Leipheimer(rode with on 2 wins) have never been mentioned in any PED investigation. Assuming guilt because they testify? Yikes.
No, I distinctly remember reading (I don't remember where...it may have just been a piece in the local paper) that at least some of Armstrong's teammates were facing PED-related sanctions themselves, but they were being offered relatively light punishments, in exchange for their testimony against Armstrong. I believe that both Hincapie and Leipheimer were mentioned by name in that article, but I wouldn't swear to that.
I'd have to see the article, before I believe it.

I have not heard of either of them involved in PED's case before. To clarify, I mean using PED's themselves. I suppose there will be rumor's that they received deals, that wouldn't surprise me.


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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by SonomaCat » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:35 pm

Looks like it's unconfirmed at this point:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/07/0 ... -tour.html




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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by LTown Cat » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:01 pm

Bump.



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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by SonomaCat » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:11 pm

I saw the bump and knew what was being hinted at ....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/ ... 57258616/1

Sounds like he's pretty much admitting guilt here ... but he leaves the door open for people to believe that he's not.



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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by TIrwin24 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:24 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:I saw the bump and knew what was being hinted at ....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/ ... 57258616/1

Sounds like he's pretty much admitting guilt here ... but he leaves the door open for people to believe that he's not.
That's ignorant to say BAC.

I don't know about you, but fighting an uphill battle since 1999 when he first won the Tour has got to get extremely old.
In walking away, the 40-year-old Armstrong cited a familiar defense: he has never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs. "I know who won those seven Tours," Armstrong said in his statement. "The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially Travis Tygart."
Truth


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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by rollo_tumasi » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:43 am

Travis Tygart is a douche!


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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by grizzh8r » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:18 am

TIrwin24 wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:I saw the bump and knew what was being hinted at ....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/ ... 57258616/1

Sounds like he's pretty much admitting guilt here ... but he leaves the door open for people to believe that he's not.
That's ignorant to say BAC.

I don't know about you, but fighting an uphill battle since 1999 when he first won the Tour has got to get extremely old.
In walking away, the 40-year-old Armstrong cited a familiar defense: he has never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs. "I know who won those seven Tours," Armstrong said in his statement. "The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially Travis Tygart."
Truth
Plus, he' not making the money he once was, and I'm sure continuing to fight is a real drain on funds...


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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by John K » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:30 am

I don't believe for a second that Armstrong didn't use PED while winning his 7 TDF titles, but I don't believe he should have been stripped of those titles, since most of the other riders that he beat were probably also on PED.



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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by CapitalCityCat » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:15 am

John K wrote:I don't believe for a second that Armstrong didn't use PED while winning his 7 TDF titles, but I don't believe he should have been stripped of those titles, since most of the other riders that he beat were probably also on PED.
I wondered... will they now credit the 2nd-place finisher (or maybe 3rd, 4th, 5th.... 43rd?) How far do they go down the list? :wink:


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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by John K » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:51 am

CapitalCityCat wrote:
John K wrote:I don't believe for a second that Armstrong didn't use PED while winning his 7 TDF titles, but I don't believe he should have been stripped of those titles, since most of the other riders that he beat were probably also on PED.
I wondered... will they now credit the 2nd-place finisher (or maybe 3rd, 4th, 5th.... 43rd?) How far do they go down the list? :wink:
I was wondering about that too. I'm guessing they will just leave the title vacant for those years, but who knows?



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Re: Lance Armstrong ... doping

Post by SonomaCat » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:56 am

Keep the faith, TIrwin. Perhaps those who still have the faith can contribute to a legal defense fund so he can keep up the fight (if the issue here really is the cost of the defense). Of course, I'm sure a countless number of attorneys would love to take up his defense pro bono (or at reduced rates) just to make a name for themselves. Who wouldn't want to be the guy whose worked to exonerate a national hero against bogus charges from an evil bureaucratic institution? So it actually seems quite unlikely that cost was really a factor in his decision to "give up the fight."

It seems a whole lot more plausible that he saw the list of people they had lined up to testify, knew what those people knew about his guilt, and then admitted guilt without publicly admitting guilt (thus allowing his fans to continue to keep the faith, keeping open a channel to future sympathy/income by playing the persecution/victim card to said fans), just as I opined before.

I think Pete Rose is a good historical analogy here.

As an aside, there was nothing "ignorant" about what I said. I'm quite well informed in the opinion I expressed.



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