Manhattan Christian loses

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Manhattan Christian loses

Post by orsalak » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:00 pm

West Yellowstone boys defeated Manhattan Christian on Saturday night. This is the first time Manhattan Christian lost a regular season conference game in 6 years. MCHS has dominated 11/12c which is the district that has dominated the Western C Division for a few years.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:56 pm

orsalak wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:00 pm
West Yellowstone defeated Manhattan Christian on Saturday night. This is the first time Manhattan Christian lost a regular season conference game in 6 years. MCHS has dominated 11/12c which is the district that has dominated the Western C Division for a few years.
For some reason, West Yellowstone give the Eagles trouble. Last season's undefeated state C champs needed overtime to beat them late in the season.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by HookedOnGriz » Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:36 pm

Christian was without their best player in Amrud as well. That kid scores 20 a game.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by allcat » Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:04 pm

I grew up in West Yellowstone. One Friday game Twin Bridges sent their jv squad to play us. We beat them. Being full of ourselves we went to MC the next night. They beat us 101 to 38. Fifty years later we finally get revenge.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by wapiti » Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:23 pm

HookedOnGriz wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:36 pm
Christian was without their best player in Amrud as well. That kid scores 20 a game.
I thought I heard he has a bad ankle sprain. Will probably be out 4 to 8 weeks.
Luckily for him 2 of those weeks is the Christmas break.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:42 pm

wapiti wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:23 pm
HookedOnGriz wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:36 pm
Christian was without their best player in Amrud as well. That kid scores 20 a game.
I thought I heard he has a bad ankle sprain. Will probably be out 4 to 8 weeks.
Luckily for him 2 of those weeks is the Christmas break.
Well they usually win their district games by 30 or 40 points, so still a heck of a win for West Yellowstone. The Wolverines win will provide some intrigue when the District Tournament tips off.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by orsalak » Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:44 am

This topic weaves right into this proposal from MHSA. Thoughts?
1. PROPOSAL TO ADD A PRIVATE SCHOOL MULTIPLIER BY-LAW, ARTICLE X, ATHLETIC CLASSIFICATION AND DISTRICTING
Proposal: (Include all deletions as well as additions. List by article, section and page numbers. Lima High School proposes to add a private school multiplier to By-Law, Article X, Athletic Classification and Districting. Member schools that are considered private under OPI's definition or non-public schools shall use a 1.5 multiplier of enrollment when determining enrollment numbers for classification and districting.
Rationale: According to NFHS there are 21 states that use either a mulitplier or competitive balancing formula for private schools. Many of the private MHSA member schools are located in relatively urban (by Montana standards of urban) areas of Montana providing a more competitive enrollment/recruiting/selection process. An example of the need for this can be found in Class C. Between 2015 and fall 2022 one private/nonpublic school has won 33.3% of all the state championships for Volleyball, Basketball, Golf, Track and Field and Cross Country combined. This can, in part, be attributed to the enrollment/recruiting/selection process for private schools. Some private schools across Montana choose to play up a classification for the competition. This proposed multiplier does not impact their ability to continue to play up a classification as allowed under the current By-Law, Article X.
Fiscal Note: (if any) The only fiscal note would be the different travel times for teams. This could be more or less than the current situation based on the location of the private school.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by wapiti » Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:52 am

orsalak wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:44 am
This topic weaves right into this proposal from MHSA. Thoughts?
1. PROPOSAL TO ADD A PRIVATE SCHOOL MULTIPLIER BY-LAW, ARTICLE X, ATHLETIC CLASSIFICATION AND DISTRICTING
Proposal: (Include all deletions as well as additions. List by article, section and page numbers. Lima High School proposes to add a private school multiplier to By-Law, Article X, Athletic Classification and Districting. Member schools that are considered private under OPI's definition or non-public schools shall use a 1.5 multiplier of enrollment when determining enrollment numbers for classification and districting.
Rationale: According to NFHS there are 21 states that use either a mulitplier or competitive balancing formula for private schools. Many of the private MHSA member schools are located in relatively urban (by Montana standards of urban) areas of Montana providing a more competitive enrollment/recruiting/selection process. An example of the need for this can be found in Class C. Between 2015 and fall 2022 one private/nonpublic school has won 33.3% of all the state championships for Volleyball, Basketball, Golf, Track and Field and Cross Country combined. This can, in part, be attributed to the enrollment/recruiting/selection process for private schools. Some private schools across Montana choose to play up a classification for the competition. This proposed multiplier does not impact their ability to continue to play up a classification as allowed under the current By-Law, Article X.
Fiscal Note: (if any) The only fiscal note would be the different travel times for teams. This could be more or less than the current situation based on the location of the private school.
Not all private schools are competitive in sports. Lustre is an example, but it is located in the middle of nowhere.

Maybe have the multiplier only apply when said private school is in or near a higher populated area.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by coloradocat » Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:16 pm

orsalak wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:44 am
This topic weaves right into this proposal from MHSA. Thoughts?
1. PROPOSAL TO ADD A PRIVATE SCHOOL MULTIPLIER BY-LAW, ARTICLE X, ATHLETIC CLASSIFICATION AND DISTRICTING
Proposal: (Include all deletions as well as additions. List by article, section and page numbers. Lima High School proposes to add a private school multiplier to By-Law, Article X, Athletic Classification and Districting. Member schools that are considered private under OPI's definition or non-public schools shall use a 1.5 multiplier of enrollment when determining enrollment numbers for classification and districting.
Rationale: According to NFHS there are 21 states that use either a mulitplier or competitive balancing formula for private schools. Many of the private MHSA member schools are located in relatively urban (by Montana standards of urban) areas of Montana providing a more competitive enrollment/recruiting/selection process. An example of the need for this can be found in Class C. Between 2015 and fall 2022 one private/nonpublic school has won 33.3% of all the state championships for Volleyball, Basketball, Golf, Track and Field and Cross Country combined. This can, in part, be attributed to the enrollment/recruiting/selection process for private schools. Some private schools across Montana choose to play up a classification for the competition. This proposed multiplier does not impact their ability to continue to play up a classification as allowed under the current By-Law, Article X.
Fiscal Note: (if any) The only fiscal note would be the different travel times for teams. This could be more or less than the current situation based on the location of the private school.
Is this saying the private schools would be forced to classify up a level (assuming 1.5x would bump them up) instead of just giving them the option to play games up a level?

Which school are they referring to? If it's new that's one thing but if it's been around forever like Billings Central then it's a bad example to use to justify the rule change.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by orsalak » Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:44 pm

coloradocat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:16 pm
orsalak wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:44 am
This topic weaves right into this proposal from MHSA. Thoughts?
1. PROPOSAL TO ADD A PRIVATE SCHOOL MULTIPLIER BY-LAW, ARTICLE X, ATHLETIC CLASSIFICATION AND DISTRICTING
Proposal: (Include all deletions as well as additions. List by article, section and page numbers. Lima High School proposes to add a private school multiplier to By-Law, Article X, Athletic Classification and Districting. Member schools that are considered private under OPI's definition or non-public schools shall use a 1.5 multiplier of enrollment when determining enrollment numbers for classification and districting.
Rationale: According to NFHS there are 21 states that use either a mulitplier or competitive balancing formula for private schools. Many of the private MHSA member schools are located in relatively urban (by Montana standards of urban) areas of Montana providing a more competitive enrollment/recruiting/selection process. An example of the need for this can be found in Class C. Between 2015 and fall 2022 one private/nonpublic school has won 33.3% of all the state championships for Volleyball, Basketball, Golf, Track and Field and Cross Country combined. This can, in part, be attributed to the enrollment/recruiting/selection process for private schools. Some private schools across Montana choose to play up a classification for the competition. This proposed multiplier does not impact their ability to continue to play up a classification as allowed under the current By-Law, Article X.
Fiscal Note: (if any) The only fiscal note would be the different travel times for teams. This could be more or less than the current situation based on the location of the private school.
Is this saying the private schools would be forced to classify up a level (assuming 1.5x would bump them up) instead of just giving them the option to play games up a level?

Which school are they referring to? If it's new that's one thing but if it's been around forever like Billings Central then it's a bad example to use to justify the rule change.
I believe this proposal is referring to MCHS.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by coloradocat » Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:56 pm

orsalak wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:44 pm
coloradocat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:16 pm
orsalak wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:44 am
This topic weaves right into this proposal from MHSA. Thoughts?
1. PROPOSAL TO ADD A PRIVATE SCHOOL MULTIPLIER BY-LAW, ARTICLE X, ATHLETIC CLASSIFICATION AND DISTRICTING
Proposal: (Include all deletions as well as additions. List by article, section and page numbers. Lima High School proposes to add a private school multiplier to By-Law, Article X, Athletic Classification and Districting. Member schools that are considered private under OPI's definition or non-public schools shall use a 1.5 multiplier of enrollment when determining enrollment numbers for classification and districting.
Rationale: According to NFHS there are 21 states that use either a mulitplier or competitive balancing formula for private schools. Many of the private MHSA member schools are located in relatively urban (by Montana standards of urban) areas of Montana providing a more competitive enrollment/recruiting/selection process. An example of the need for this can be found in Class C. Between 2015 and fall 2022 one private/nonpublic school has won 33.3% of all the state championships for Volleyball, Basketball, Golf, Track and Field and Cross Country combined. This can, in part, be attributed to the enrollment/recruiting/selection process for private schools. Some private schools across Montana choose to play up a classification for the competition. This proposed multiplier does not impact their ability to continue to play up a classification as allowed under the current By-Law, Article X.
Fiscal Note: (if any) The only fiscal note would be the different travel times for teams. This could be more or less than the current situation based on the location of the private school.
Is this saying the private schools would be forced to classify up a level (assuming 1.5x would bump them up) instead of just giving them the option to play games up a level?

Which school are they referring to? If it's new that's one thing but if it's been around forever like Billings Central then it's a bad example to use to justify the rule change.
I believe this proposal is referring to MCHS.
Thanks. I missed the reference to Class C.

A quick look at their website says they've existed for over 105 years. Sure, they're proximity to Belgrade and Bozeman is an advantage but then shouldn't Missoula Loyola dominate Class B and Billings Central dominate Class A? Class C is likely easier to dominate with just one or two really good athletes on a particular team but it feels like cherry picking to justify a change.

There are definitely pros and cons to making the change but I wonder if it's also a case of jealous public schools ganging up on private schools.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:55 pm

Manhattan Christian often gets accused of recruiting players. I know this is not the case, but I understand the sentiment. Way back in my day-about 100 years ago, the competition in Class C was definitely stiffer. I played against the Hereford brothers from Gardiner (Chris Hereford played for MSU and then MSUB). My senior year Gardiner didn't even make it out of District with those guys-same with White Sulphur Springs with the Manger brothers who were both 6'5" and really good. Even little Willow Creek had some really good players-Brian Miller was a stud. Wilsall and Clyde Park were separate schools back then and both were really good. It's just not the case now-a-days. Most area Class C teams are just really bad. I don't know why. Small towns are just shrinking and people aren't having as many kids I guess.

I don't know why MCHS doesn't voluntarily go up to Class B. They already play a lot of Class B schools every year and would probably have easier road trips. I'm sure they have their reasons. I know their enrollment is not huge and this year they only have enough kids out for a varsity girls team-no JV-which is very much a Class C thing.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by Cataholic » Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:08 pm

BelgradeBobcat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:55 pm
Manhattan Christian often gets accused of recruiting players. I know this is not the case, but I understand the sentiment. Way back in my day-about 100 years ago, the competition in Class C was definitely stiffer. I played against the Hereford brothers from Gardiner (Chris Hereford played for MSU and then MSUB). My senior year Gardiner didn't even make it out of District with those guys-same with White Sulphur Springs with the Manger brothers who were both 6'5" and really good. Even little Willow Creek had some really good players-Brian Miller was a stud. Wilsall and Clyde Park were separate schools back then and both were really good. It's just not the case now-a-days. Most area Class C teams are just really bad. I don't know why. Small towns are just shrinking and people aren't having as many kids I guess.

I don't know why MCHS doesn't voluntarily go up to Class B. They already play a lot of Class B schools every year and would probably have easier road trips. I'm sure they have their reasons. I know their enrollment is not huge and this year they only have enough kids out for a varsity girls team-no JV-which is very much a Class C thing.
I would guess that youth basketball has changed the development curve for small towns. Every larger city has multiple travel basketball teams for 4th to 8th grades. The smaller C towns are lucky to have 1 team per multiple grades. By the time those kids hit high school, they are way behind. Manhattan Christian has a very active travel basketball scene and they also have the option of playing on Bozeman area teams.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:31 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:08 pm
BelgradeBobcat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:55 pm
Manhattan Christian often gets accused of recruiting players. I know this is not the case, but I understand the sentiment. Way back in my day-about 100 years ago, the competition in Class C was definitely stiffer. I played against the Hereford brothers from Gardiner (Chris Hereford played for MSU and then MSUB). My senior year Gardiner didn't even make it out of District with those guys-same with White Sulphur Springs with the Manger brothers who were both 6'5" and really good. Even little Willow Creek had some really good players-Brian Miller was a stud. Wilsall and Clyde Park were separate schools back then and both were really good. It's just not the case now-a-days. Most area Class C teams are just really bad. I don't know why. Small towns are just shrinking and people aren't having as many kids I guess.

I don't know why MCHS doesn't voluntarily go up to Class B. They already play a lot of Class B schools every year and would probably have easier road trips. I'm sure they have their reasons. I know their enrollment is not huge and this year they only have enough kids out for a varsity girls team-no JV-which is very much a Class C thing.
I would guess that youth basketball has changed the development curve for small towns. Every larger city has multiple travel basketball teams for 4th to 8th grades. The smaller C towns are lucky to have 1 team per multiple grades. By the time those kids hit high school, they are way behind. Manhattan Christian has a very active travel basketball scene and they also have the option of playing on Bozeman area teams.
Yeah that's something that's changed significantly. Back in my day, we played rat ball in the summer which probably eroded fundamentals more than improved them. Some of us maybe went to a basketball camp for a week. Other than the camps coaches had to stay away-which made no sense but that's what it was.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by BelligerentBobcat » Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:19 pm

BelgradeBobcat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:55 pm
Manhattan Christian often gets accused of recruiting players. I know this is not the case, but I understand the sentiment. Way back in my day-about 100 years ago, the competition in Class C was definitely stiffer. I played against the Hereford brothers from Gardiner (Chris Hereford played for MSU and then MSUB). My senior year Gardiner didn't even make it out of District with those guys-same with White Sulphur Springs with the Manger brothers who were both 6'5" and really good. Even little Willow Creek had some really good players-Brian Miller was a stud. Wilsall and Clyde Park were separate schools back then and both were really good. It's just not the case now-a-days. Most area Class C teams are just really bad. I don't know why. Small towns are just shrinking and people aren't having as many kids I guess.

I don't know why MCHS doesn't voluntarily go up to Class B. They already play a lot of Class B schools every year and would probably have easier road trips. I'm sure they have their reasons. I know their enrollment is not huge and this year they only have enough kids out for a varsity girls team-no JV-which is very much a Class C thing.
Christian was Class B for a while. Then went through a spurt of low enrollment and not having the best teams and dropped down to Class C. I believe I heard they had 5 HS girl go out for basketball this year, had to get 8th graders to fill out the team.

The reason the boys are good at basketball is because they work their asses off, and there’s some athletic genes in that community. Many of the last names are the same every couple generations. They’re a good school, good program.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:28 pm

BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:19 pm
The reason the boys are good at basketball is because they work their asses off, and there’s some athletic genes in that community. Many of the last names are the same every couple generations. They’re a good school, good program.
The other thing that's changed up there is the facility. Their gym is one of the nicest in the entire state, but the big difference in my opinion is the weight room...and the fact that they know how to use it (which definitely wasn't the case way back when). Good facility, summer basketball, hard working kids-and yes it's mostly the same last names that have been up there forever, and excellent coaching have got them rolling.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by LTown Cat » Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:33 am

BelgradeBobcat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:28 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:19 pm
The reason the boys are good at basketball is because they work their asses off, and there’s some athletic genes in that community. Many of the last names are the same every couple generations. They’re a good school, good program.
The other thing that's changed up there is the facility. Their gym is one of the nicest in the entire state, but the big difference in my opinion is the weight room...and the fact that they know how to use it (which definitely wasn't the case way back when). Good facility, summer basketball, hard working kids-and yes it's mostly the same last names that have been up there forever, and excellent coaching have got them rolling.
And no football. Yes they can coop with MHS but b-ball is the big thing at MCHS.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by BelligerentBobcat » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:35 am

LTown Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:33 am
BelgradeBobcat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:28 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:19 pm
The reason the boys are good at basketball is because they work their asses off, and there’s some athletic genes in that community. Many of the last names are the same every couple generations. They’re a good school, good program.
The other thing that's changed up there is the facility. Their gym is one of the nicest in the entire state, but the big difference in my opinion is the weight room...and the fact that they know how to use it (which definitely wasn't the case way back when). Good facility, summer basketball, hard working kids-and yes it's mostly the same last names that have been up there forever, and excellent coaching have got them rolling.
And no football. Yes they can coop with MHS but b-ball is the big thing at MCHS.
That’s changing too actually. They won’t be allowed to co-op with Manhattan anymore. They’re going to have their own football team, don’t remember if it’s 6 or 8 man. Should be good for their basketball program, get some size and toughness.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by kennethnoisewater » Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:00 pm

coloradocat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:56 pm
orsalak wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:44 pm
coloradocat wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:16 pm
orsalak wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:44 am
This topic weaves right into this proposal from MHSA. Thoughts?
1. PROPOSAL TO ADD A PRIVATE SCHOOL MULTIPLIER BY-LAW, ARTICLE X, ATHLETIC CLASSIFICATION AND DISTRICTING
Proposal: (Include all deletions as well as additions. List by article, section and page numbers. Lima High School proposes to add a private school multiplier to By-Law, Article X, Athletic Classification and Districting. Member schools that are considered private under OPI's definition or non-public schools shall use a 1.5 multiplier of enrollment when determining enrollment numbers for classification and districting.
Rationale: According to NFHS there are 21 states that use either a mulitplier or competitive balancing formula for private schools. Many of the private MHSA member schools are located in relatively urban (by Montana standards of urban) areas of Montana providing a more competitive enrollment/recruiting/selection process. An example of the need for this can be found in Class C. Between 2015 and fall 2022 one private/nonpublic school has won 33.3% of all the state championships for Volleyball, Basketball, Golf, Track and Field and Cross Country combined. This can, in part, be attributed to the enrollment/recruiting/selection process for private schools. Some private schools across Montana choose to play up a classification for the competition. This proposed multiplier does not impact their ability to continue to play up a classification as allowed under the current By-Law, Article X.
Fiscal Note: (if any) The only fiscal note would be the different travel times for teams. This could be more or less than the current situation based on the location of the private school.
Is this saying the private schools would be forced to classify up a level (assuming 1.5x would bump them up) instead of just giving them the option to play games up a level?

Which school are they referring to? If it's new that's one thing but if it's been around forever like Billings Central then it's a bad example to use to justify the rule change.
I believe this proposal is referring to MCHS.
Thanks. I missed the reference to Class C.

A quick look at their website says they've existed for over 105 years. Sure, they're proximity to Belgrade and Bozeman is an advantage but then shouldn't Missoula Loyola dominate Class B and Billings Central dominate Class A? Class C is likely easier to dominate with just one or two really good athletes on a particular team but it feels like cherry picking to justify a change.

There are definitely pros and cons to making the change but I wonder if it's also a case of jealous public schools ganging up on private schools.
Loyola is on the smaller side of Class B (middle of the pack really), and they're as good as any school in Class B overall. Runners up in football this year, maybe the best boys' basketball team in B, girls hoops won a couple years ago (the Covid tie), golf and tennis win state regularly, 2nd in boys' track last year, and maybe the best speech/debate program in Class B historically. A 1.5 multiplier would put them at around 250, which keeps them solidly in Class B (the cutoff is somewhere around 310).

When you have families with money, you have a huge advantage. And I'm not talking about super rich, I'm just talking about a school full of kids who can go to camps, who can travel to play hoops, who can maybe go to an advanced training facility (like Pfahler in Missoula), and who just generally don't have to worry about not being able to afford shoes or food or get a ride to practice. The state average for schools with populations qualifying for free and reduced lunch (families with financial hardship) is somewhere around 50%. Plenty of great athletes come from those families, sure, but it's becoming more and more rare. In a lot of public schools in Montana you can just count on a good chunk of the student population not being able to make it. Maybe they can't afford those extras, and some of those kids and families just aren't the highest performing people generally. I know that sounds mean, but it's reality. Private schools tend not to have many of those kids and families, so all of them just start with more potential. I don't know if it's still the case now, but Loyola used to require every student to be in some sort of extra-curricular or co-curricular activity.

I don't know if Loyola recruits. I think they do a little bit, though it's not the school that's actively recruiting. I think it's pretty common for a kid to have a neighbor who's a good athlete and maybe not getting the playing time they'd like at Sentinel or Hellgate or Big Sky (let's be honest, if they're not getting PT at Big Sky they're not that good :wink: ). Their parents start talking to the Loyola parents and they start getting creative about how to pay for tuition and they can be on a really good team with a chance to go play in college or at least be in the hunt for a state championship. MCHS could make it in Class B. Even in girls basketball they might struggle a little bit at first but it's not like they don't have the athletes. They've won 3 of the last 4 state championships in Volleyball and they have one of the better track teams in Class C. And smaller Class B schools can compete in 8 man football now.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by TomCat88 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:05 am

Historically, the Western C ranks last in hoops in Montana, although it has improved over the last 10 years or so. MCHS is usually not as good as its season record.

If it moved to B it would have to compete in the Southern B (only 3 divisions in B), which is the top B division. Mchs would have a difficult time getting to state out of that division. This year four teams advance from Southern B but I’m not sure that’s an every year thing.

They would be in the same district with Three Forks, which consistently puts out good boys teams. Manhattan has also been solid the past few years.

I can see why MCHS doesn’t want to go to B. It has a huge competitive (due to lack of competition) advantage in the Western C.


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