High School Basketball

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Billings_Griz
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Re: High School Basketball

Post by Billings_Griz » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:19 am

wasacatfan wrote:Boys b-ball Westby and Plentywood of the middle 70s or around there. Outlook and Flaxville could compete very well also and to think these towns were all within 50 miles of each other.
1979 class B Scobey 1st, Plentywood 2nd, class C Flaxville 1st, Peerless 2nd

But, yeah, Westby/Peerless/Flaxville/Outlook/Antelope were all real good. 1-C was a power. 8)


Someone mentioned Winifred's mid-90's girls teams...I would put Opheim's girls state championship teams of '83-'84-'85, coached by Steve Keller, near the top of any girls teams. For sure any class C team.



Billings Cat
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Re: High School Basketball

Post by Billings Cat » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:32 pm

LTown Cat wrote:
CPACAT wrote:
Billings Cat wrote:
CFCAT wrote:
ilovethecats wrote:i'm sorry, but i have watched columbia falls this year twice and they wouldn't come within 10-15 of the top teams in AA this year. this isn't a knock on them because i did think they were a good team. just not the overall talent....and depth especially of the AA's best.
C Falls is 4-0 against AA this year, including a win against Western AA #1 seed Glacier and against Sentinal who beat Bozeman. 10-15 points is just ridiculous, and why I again say, lets roll it out and see who would win.
Never gonna happen. The only way you're going to see these kids competing against one another is at the post-season all-star tournaments like the Radisson. What they've done with wrestling is admirable, but most of the good kids aren't showing up and never will for that thing. The mythical All-Class state title will remain just that...mythical.

I would say that this year most of the good kids showed up. Yes there were some that did not for whatever reason with a lot of them being AA wrestlers but I would say that they probably had 8 of the top 10 wreslters pound for pound there this year. It is improving each year.
I agree. Money talks. If someone offered to sponsor--pay expenses, etc. for the schools--I bet it could be done.
Someone already pays expenses for the wrestlers and there sure are a lot that choose not to compete (see below). And that includes kids from Great Falls! Unlike some others, I won't throw these kids under the bus, but getting individuals to extend their season is a lot easier than entire teams which would be the case with basketball. The goal is, and should continue to be, winning a State Championship representing your school, and if kids are ready to be done, then I really don't think that says anything about their skill or character.

2011 Blewett Wrestling TOC

IN
98--1st & 2nd AA; 1st A; 1st BC
105--1st AA; 1st, 2nd, 3rd A; 1st BC
112--1st AA; 1st & 2nd A; 1st, 2nd, 3rd BC
119--1st & 2nd A; 1st & 2nd BC
125--2nd A; 1st, 4th, 5th BC
130--1st AA; 1st & 2nd A; 1st & 2nd BC
135--1st A; 1st BC
140--2nd AA; 1st A; 1st & 2nd BC
145--3rd AA; 1st & 3rd A; 1st BC
152--2nd & DNP AA; 1st & 3rd A; 4th BC
160--2nd AA; 1st, 2nd, 3rd A; 1st BC
171--1st AA; 1st & 2nd A; 2nd BC
189--1st AA; 1st, 2nd, 3rd A; 1st BC
215--2nd A; 1st, 2nd, 3rd BC
HWT--3rd A; 1st & 3rd BC

Missing
98--3rd AA; 2nd & 3rd A; 2nd & 3rd BC
105--2nd & 3rd AA; 2nd & 3rd BC
112--2nd & 3rd AA; 3rd A
119--1st, 2nd, 3rd AA; 1st & 3rd BC; 3rd BC
125--1st, 2nd, 3rd AA; 1st & 3rd A; 2nd & 3rd BC
130--2nd & 3rd AA; 3rd A; 3rd BC
135--1st, 2nd, 3rd AA; 2nd & 3rd A; 2nd & 3rd BC
140--1st & 3rd AA; 2nd & 3rd A; 3rd BC
145--1st & 2nd AA; 2nd A; 2nd & 3rd BC
152--1st & 3rd AA; 2nd A; 1st, 2nd, 3rd BC
160--1st & 3rd AA; 2nd & 3rd BC
171--2nd & 3rd AA; 3rd A; 1st & 3rd BC
189--2nd & 3rd AA; 2nd & 3rd BC
215--1st, 2nd, 3rd AA; 1st & 3rd A
HWT--1st, 2nd, 3rd AA; 1st, 2nd, 3rd A; 2nd BC



John K
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Re: High School Basketball

Post by John K » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:05 pm

So even with many of the AA champions missing, AA and A still won 12 of the 15 championships. And the disparity would likely be much greater in a team sport such as basketball, versus an individual sport like wrestling. I think this gives you a good indication that the larger schools would be pretty dominant in an all-class hoops tourney. I'm not saying that a B or C school could never win, but I think it would be very rare. And I don't think even A schools would win more than maybe once out every 4-5 years. As several people have already mentioned, it's simply a numbers game....no more complicated than that. The bigger schools have many more good players to choose from, and they will generally have better coaching as well, since good coaches normally climb the ladder once they've been successful at smaller schools.



John K
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Re: High School Basketball

Post by John K » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:14 pm

Looking at those wrestling results a little more thoroughly, the AA champ was missing from every single weight class that was won by an A or B-C wrestler. So there was not a single AA champion, who was defeated by a champ from a smaller school. That's not to say that every single AA champ would have won, had they chosen to participate, but I do think it clearly illustrates the dominance of the larger schools, even in an individual sport like wrestling. And again, I believe they would be even more dominant in team sports.



c.falls cat
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Re: High School Basketball

Post by c.falls cat » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:37 pm

Billings Cat wrote:
CFCAT wrote:
ilovethecats wrote:i'm sorry, but i have watched columbia falls this year twice and they wouldn't come within 10-15 of the top teams in AA this year. this isn't a knock on them because i did think they were a good team. just not the overall talent....and depth especially of the AA's best.
C Falls is 4-0 against AA this year, including a win against Western AA #1 seed Glacier and against Sentinal who beat Bozeman. 10-15 points is just ridiculous, and why I again say, lets roll it out and see who would win.
Never gonna happen. The only way you're going to see these kids competing against one another is at the post-season all-star tournaments like the Radisson. What they've done with wrestling is admirable, but most of the good kids aren't showing up and never will for that thing. The mythical All-Class state title will remain just that...mythical.

what is the turn out like for the Radisson? i have never been to one of those things, do most of the top kids show? i would think it might be like the wrestling toc, where its tough to get everyone to be there, especially down to billings.

ilovethecats: not sure what games you watched c.falls play, but i'm not sure how you come away thinking they would get blown out by the best AA teams. they have 2 kids that will play in college, they are as long and as athletic as any AA team and they play 10 kids. i will admit i have not seen Bozeman play and i completly agree that most years the AA top team is the best in the state, but i think this c-falls team is as good as any.



ilovethecats
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Re: High School Basketball

Post by ilovethecats » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:57 pm

c.falls cat wrote: ilovethecats: not sure what games you watched c.falls play, but i'm not sure how you come away thinking they would get blown out by the best AA teams. they have 2 kids that will play in college, they are as long and as athletic as any AA team and they play 10 kids. i will admit i have not seen Bozeman play and i completly agree that most years the AA top team is the best in the state, but i think this c-falls team is as good as any.
i was doing some stuff for family in ronan last month and caught them before valentines day and again there a couple weeks ago. don't get me wrong, they are a good team and very well coached. i wanted to get to watch them at state here in bozeman last week but was busy. i agree they have some kids that are pretty dang good and certainly got my attention. and having 2 kids that go on to play college ball is great. but again...it's a numbers game. if we're counting naia, d2, d3, as well as d1 as playing in college (which i obviously do), there are some aa teams that send their entire starting five off to colleges all over. i remember a bozeman high team a while ago that had two kids off the bench that went on to play naia. to be fair one of them quit soon after.

this isn't to take anything away from these guys. but i have watched c. falls play twice and i've seen bozeman play about 10 times this year and i honestly don't think it'd be close. it's just the name of the game. i also don't think the very best team montana has to offer could compete with some of the other top high schools in the country. just too much talent out there. not a slight on anyone...just how i see it.



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Re: High School Basketball

Post by John K » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:44 pm

You really have to take comparative scores with a grain of salt too. Just because C-Falls beat Glacier and Sentinel, and Sentinel beat Bozeman in regular season games, doesn't necessarily mean that C-Falls is better than Bozeman, and would beat them head to head in an all-class state tourney. All the power is in the East this year in AA boy's BB, as it was last year when the East swept the top three spots at State. The East might even take the top four spots this year, and even a couple of the teams that didn't make it to State from the East, might be as good as the best teams from the West. The cumulative regular season W-L record in inter-division play has been overwhelming in favor of the East the past couple of seasons. That actually tends to reinforce the numbers game argument as well, since 6 of the 7 largest schools are in the East, and 6 of the 7 smallest are in the West. Billings West is the largest school in the state with an enrollment of 1,914, almost double that of Missoula Big Sky, which is the smallest with only 1,045.



c.falls cat
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Re: High School Basketball

Post by c.falls cat » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:40 pm

John K wrote:You really have to take comparative scores with a grain of salt too. Just because C-Falls beat Glacier and Sentinel, and Sentinel beat Bozeman in regular season games, doesn't necessarily mean that C-Falls is better than Bozeman, and would beat them head to head in an all-class state tourney. All the power is in the East this year in AA boy's BB, as it was last year when the East swept the top three spots at State. The East might even take the top four spots this year, and even a couple of the teams that didn't make it to State from the East, might be as good as the best teams from the West. The cumulative regular season W-L record in inter-division play has been overwhelming in favor of the East the past couple of seasons. That actually tends to reinforce the numbers game argument as well, since 6 of the 7 largest schools are in the East, and 6 of the 7 smallest are in the West. Billings West is the largest school in the state with an enrollment of 1,914, almost double that of Missoula Big Sky, which is the smallest with only 1,045.
I think reasonable sports fans know that comparing scores is not going to tell you too much. things like how teams match-up, where they played and when they played are all factors that you can't really acount for. this debate is never going to be settled on the court, so it is just fun to make your case, sometimes using scores of common opponents and see the responses that it brings. that got me to thinking, how did Bozeman and Columbia Falls fair in shared opposition? there was four teams in common.

Big Sky: Boz. won by 49 - C. falls won by 25
Begrade: Boz won (2x) 14 and 9 - C. falls won by 17
Flathead: Boz won by 34 - C.falls won by 18
Sentinal: Boz LOST by 8 - C falls won by 4

Again, does not prove anything either way, just fun to look at.



c.falls cat
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Re: High School Basketball

Post by c.falls cat » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:07 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
c.falls cat wrote: ilovethecats: not sure what games you watched c.falls play, but i'm not sure how you come away thinking they would get blown out by the best AA teams. they have 2 kids that will play in college, they are as long and as athletic as any AA team and they play 10 kids. i will admit i have not seen Bozeman play and i completly agree that most years the AA top team is the best in the state, but i think this c-falls team is as good as any.
i was doing some stuff for family in ronan last month and caught them before valentines day and again there a couple weeks ago. don't get me wrong, they are a good team and very well coached. i wanted to get to watch them at state here in bozeman last week but was busy. i agree they have some kids that are pretty dang good and certainly got my attention. and having 2 kids that go on to play college ball is great. but again...it's a numbers game. if we're counting naia, d2, d3, as well as d1 as playing in college (which i obviously do), there are some aa teams that send their entire starting five off to colleges all over. i remember a bozeman high team a while ago that had two kids off the bench that went on to play naia. to be fair one of them quit soon after.

this isn't to take anything away from these guys. but i have watched c. falls play twice and i've seen bozeman play about 10 times this year and i honestly don't think it'd be close. it's just the name of the game. i also don't think the very best team montana has to offer could compete with some of the other top high schools in the country. just too much talent out there. not a slight on anyone...just how i see it.
I think we will have to agree to disagree, to bad the logistics of a Big 32 (or eight) type tournament are to much to overcome. Could be fun.

The number of MT kids playing college b-ball intrigued me though, it seemed like the numbers were being over stated. so i looked at the rosters of all the in-state college basketball programs and this is what i came up with.
these numbers are not counting the JV teams at the schools that do that, nor did I count the Indian JC schools (two or three of those, i think)
Total number for all levels and all classes - 55
by class AA -17, A -18, B -10, C -10 B and C might not be completely accurate (sorry, I had never heard of some of those towns)

I am sure there are some kids playing out of state, but that number can not be too high. I could think of 3, all class AA (Huestis, Hogan, Owsley)

So if you break that down by 5 college years (counting red-shirts) and you round up a bit for out of staters you only get about 13 to 15 kids a year state wide and only 5 or 6 AA kids a year that will play at the next level.



ilovethecats
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Re: High School Basketball

Post by ilovethecats » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:24 pm

c.falls cat wrote: The number of MT kids playing college b-ball intrigued me though, it seemed like the numbers were being over stated. so i looked at the rosters of all the in-state college basketball programs and this is what i came up with.
these numbers are not counting the JV teams at the schools that do that, nor did I count the Indian JC schools (two or three of those, i think)
Total number for all levels and all classes - 55
by class AA -17, A -18, B -10, C -10 B and C might not be completely accurate (sorry, I had never heard of some of those towns)

I am sure there are some kids playing out of state, but that number can not be too high. I could think of 3, all class AA (Huestis, Hogan, Owsley)

So if you break that down by 5 college years (counting red-shirts) and you round up a bit for out of staters you only get about 13 to 15 kids a year state wide and only 5 or 6 AA kids a year that will play at the next level.
ya many more go play out of state, i can assure you. i know that from my class alone back in the day we had a guy play here in montana, one in san diego, one in northern california, one at western, and one in beautiful leavenworth (sp?) kansas. there were some teams at bozeman after i graduated that did about the same. i remember some billings west teams over the years that would send their starting five off to colleges pretty regularly. i see what you're getting at, but as a former player and coach at the AA level, i know for a fact that many kids go on to play college ball after high school....and many do out of state.

again, just to be clear, i am not trying to discredit the c.falls team, or the accomplishment of having some of their players go on to play in college. i'm just pointing out that there are many kids that go on to play college, especially at the lower levels.

look at the montana-wyoming rosters alone. it is usually made up of 12 players, and usually every single one of them has college offers somewhere. but there are many more kids that didn't get an opportunity to play in that game that go on to play in naia and D2 and D3 schools all over the country.



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