Manhattan Christian loses

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wapiti
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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by wapiti » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:53 am

TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:05 am
Historically, the Western C ranks last in hoops in Montana, although it has improved over the last 10 years or so. MCHS is usually not as good as its season record.

If it moved to B it would have to compete in the Southern B (only 3 divisions in B), which is the top B division. Mchs would have a difficult time getting to state out of that division. This year four teams advance from Southern B but I’m not sure that’s an every year thing.

They would be in the same district with Three Forks, which consistently puts out good boys teams. Manhattan has also been solid the past few years.

I can see why MCHS doesn’t want to go to B. It has a huge competitive (due to lack of competition) advantage in the Western C.
MCHS just beat ranked class B team Manhattan by 5 and their best player is hobbled with an ankle injury. This years team and the past 4 would be competitive at the state level in class B.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by TomCat88 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:08 pm

wapiti wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:53 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:05 am
Historically, the Western C ranks last in hoops in Montana, although it has improved over the last 10 years or so. MCHS is usually not as good as its season record.

If it moved to B it would have to compete in the Southern B (only 3 divisions in B), which is the top B division. Mchs would have a difficult time getting to state out of that division. This year four teams advance from Southern B but I’m not sure that’s an every year thing.

They would be in the same district with Three Forks, which consistently puts out good boys teams. Manhattan has also been solid the past few years.

I can see why MCHS doesn’t want to go to B. It has a huge competitive (due to lack of competition) advantage in the Western C.
MCHS just beat ranked class B team Manhattan by 5 and their best player is hobbled with an ankle injury. This years team and the past 4 would be competitive at the state level in class B.
Yes, they’ve done well the last several years. But like I said above they usually aren’t as good as their record. They’ve made it to state regularly mainly because they haven’t had much competition over the years.

Good teams (the top 2-3) from AA, A, B and C are fairly even. However, MC probably doesn’t get out of the Southern B about half the time that it’s gone to the state C tournament over the years. That’s also the case if they were in any of the other C divisions.

Throw out Arlee and MC the past 5-6 years and the Western C has been very below average.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by BelligerentBobcat » Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:37 pm

Christian plays and beats Class B schools every year.

I wish they’d move up, they’re certainly good enough to play with the Class B teams AND consistently make state.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by kennethnoisewater » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:43 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:05 am
Historically, the Western C ranks last in hoops in Montana, although it has improved over the last 10 years or so. MCHS is usually not as good as its season record.

If it moved to B it would have to compete in the Southern B (only 3 divisions in B), which is the top B division. Mchs would have a difficult time getting to state out of that division. This year four teams advance from Southern B but I’m not sure that’s an every year thing.

They would be in the same district with Three Forks, which consistently puts out good boys teams. Manhattan has also been solid the past few years.

I can see why MCHS doesn’t want to go to B. It has a huge competitive (due to lack of competition) advantage in the Western C.
If they moved to B, there would probably be a shift in Class B. Southern B is already WAY bigger than Northern and Western B, which pisses off the rest of the state. They sometimes get 4 teams to state, and the North and West (one of which gets only two teams to state every three years) have won the majority of state championships since 2000. But Southern B makes a fortune off their divisional tournament at the Metra and don't want to break that up so they've fought re-alignment hard for years. Then they get a huge advantage over the North and the West because a team can lose twice at divisionals some years and still make it to state. There are a lot of years a great team in the North or West loses one game at Divisionals and if the team they lost to gets second, they can't challenge. Their season is over because of one bad game. In the South, you can lose, then lose in the divisional championship some years and still make it to state. That margin for error is a massive advantage. That's beside the point a little bit, but it would be complicated on how you'd add them to the already-too-big southern conference. From 2007 to 2019, 11 out of 12 state champions came from either the North or the West. Southern B has hardly been dominant, and in fact you could pretty easily say they've been inferior in the last 15 or so years.

The proposed solution has been to come up with a southwest B, where you'd take Three Forks, Manhattan, Boulder, Townsend, Whitehall, Anaconda, and Deer Lodge, along with MAYBE Columbus and Big Timber and start a new conference. That's a haul from say Anaconda to Colubus, but not as far as Troy to Anaconda. If Manhattan Christian joined too, that would be hard to justify one superconference. I'm not sure it will ever happen though, with Bigfork moving to A and Troy on the edge of moving to C.

In basketball, as a Class B guy, I think they'd be very competitive if they moved up. I think the highest level of Class B and Class C could compete most years with the highest level of Class A in hoops. Football is a different story, but the MHSA allows smaller Class B schools to play 8 man now, so that's where they'd belong.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by TomCat88 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:29 pm

kennethnoisewater wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:43 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:05 am
Historically, the Western C ranks last in hoops in Montana, although it has improved over the last 10 years or so. MCHS is usually not as good as its season record.

If it moved to B it would have to compete in the Southern B (only 3 divisions in B), which is the top B division. Mchs would have a difficult time getting to state out of that division. This year four teams advance from Southern B but I’m not sure that’s an every year thing.

They would be in the same district with Three Forks, which consistently puts out good boys teams. Manhattan has also been solid the past few years.

I can see why MCHS doesn’t want to go to B. It has a huge competitive (due to lack of competition) advantage in the Western C.
If they moved to B, there would probably be a shift in Class B. Southern B is already WAY bigger than Northern and Western B, which pisses off the rest of the state. They sometimes get 4 teams to state, and the North and West (one of which gets only two teams to state every three years) have won the majority of state championships since 2000. But Southern B makes a fortune off their divisional tournament at the Metra and don't want to break that up so they've fought re-alignment hard for years. Then they get a huge advantage over the North and the West because a team can lose twice at divisionals some years and still make it to state. There are a lot of years a great team in the North or West loses one game at Divisionals and if the team they lost to gets second, they can't challenge. Their season is over because of one bad game. In the South, you can lose, then lose in the divisional championship some years and still make it to state. That margin for error is a massive advantage. That's beside the point a little bit, but it would be complicated on how you'd add them to the already-too-big southern conference. From 2007 to 2019, 11 out of 12 state champions came from either the North or the West. Southern B has hardly been dominant, and in fact you could pretty easily say they've been inferior in the last 15 or so years.

The proposed solution has been to come up with a southwest B, where you'd take Three Forks, Manhattan, Boulder, Townsend, Whitehall, Anaconda, and Deer Lodge, along with MAYBE Columbus and Big Timber and start a new conference. That's a haul from say Anaconda to Colubus, but not as far as Troy to Anaconda. If Manhattan Christian joined too, that would be hard to justify one superconference. I'm not sure it will ever happen though, with Bigfork moving to A and Troy on the edge of moving to C.

In basketball, as a Class B guy, I think they'd be very competitive if they moved up. I think the highest level of Class B and Class C could compete most years with the highest level of Class A in hoops. Football is a different story, but the MHSA allows smaller Class B schools to play 8 man now, so that's where they'd belong.
Actually they need to get rid of the districts. There are about 40 teams. Split them up four ways. Top two from each to state. Mhsa will resist that because that’s a level of trophies that don’t get handed out.

They’d be competitive for sure, but they won’t be going to state as often and that won’t sit well with them.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by tetoncat » Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:40 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:29 pm
kennethnoisewater wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:43 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:05 am
Historically, the Western C ranks last in hoops in Montana, although it has improved over the last 10 years or so. MCHS is usually not as good as its season record.

If it moved to B it would have to compete in the Southern B (only 3 divisions in B), which is the top B division. Mchs would have a difficult time getting to state out of that division. This year four teams advance from Southern B but I’m not sure that’s an every year thing.

They would be in the same district with Three Forks, which consistently puts out good boys teams. Manhattan has also been solid the past few years.

I can see why MCHS doesn’t want to go to B. It has a huge competitive (due to lack of competition) advantage in the Western C.
If they moved to B, there would probably be a shift in Class B. Southern B is already WAY bigger than Northern and Western B, which pisses off the rest of the state. They sometimes get 4 teams to state, and the North and West (one of which gets only two teams to state every three years) have won the majority of state championships since 2000. But Southern B makes a fortune off their divisional tournament at the Metra and don't want to break that up so they've fought re-alignment hard for years. Then they get a huge advantage over the North and the West because a team can lose twice at divisionals some years and still make it to state. There are a lot of years a great team in the North or West loses one game at Divisionals and if the team they lost to gets second, they can't challenge. Their season is over because of one bad game. In the South, you can lose, then lose in the divisional championship some years and still make it to state. That margin for error is a massive advantage. That's beside the point a little bit, but it would be complicated on how you'd add them to the already-too-big southern conference. From 2007 to 2019, 11 out of 12 state champions came from either the North or the West. Southern B has hardly been dominant, and in fact you could pretty easily say they've been inferior in the last 15 or so years.

The proposed solution has been to come up with a southwest B, where you'd take Three Forks, Manhattan, Boulder, Townsend, Whitehall, Anaconda, and Deer Lodge, along with MAYBE Columbus and Big Timber and start a new conference. That's a haul from say Anaconda to Colubus, but not as far as Troy to Anaconda. If Manhattan Christian joined too, that would be hard to justify one superconference. I'm not sure it will ever happen though, with Bigfork moving to A and Troy on the edge of moving to C.

In basketball, as a Class B guy, I think they'd be very competitive if they moved up. I think the highest level of Class B and Class C could compete most years with the highest level of Class A in hoops. Football is a different story, but the MHSA allows smaller Class B schools to play 8 man now, so that's where they'd belong.
Actually they need to get rid of the districts. There are about 40 teams. Split them up four ways. Top two from each to state. Mhsa will resist that because that’s a level of trophies that don’t get handed out.

They’d be competitive for sure, but they won’t be going to state as often and that won’t sit well with them.
Sometimes tough geographically to split. Several new teams going b next year, maybe that will allow something like this. Have to remember MHSA is the schools, so they need to support group with biggest pool gets the vote usually


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by kennethnoisewater » Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:21 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:29 pm
kennethnoisewater wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:43 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:05 am
Historically, the Western C ranks last in hoops in Montana, although it has improved over the last 10 years or so. MCHS is usually not as good as its season record.

If it moved to B it would have to compete in the Southern B (only 3 divisions in B), which is the top B division. Mchs would have a difficult time getting to state out of that division. This year four teams advance from Southern B but I’m not sure that’s an every year thing.

They would be in the same district with Three Forks, which consistently puts out good boys teams. Manhattan has also been solid the past few years.

I can see why MCHS doesn’t want to go to B. It has a huge competitive (due to lack of competition) advantage in the Western C.
If they moved to B, there would probably be a shift in Class B. Southern B is already WAY bigger than Northern and Western B, which pisses off the rest of the state. They sometimes get 4 teams to state, and the North and West (one of which gets only two teams to state every three years) have won the majority of state championships since 2000. But Southern B makes a fortune off their divisional tournament at the Metra and don't want to break that up so they've fought re-alignment hard for years. Then they get a huge advantage over the North and the West because a team can lose twice at divisionals some years and still make it to state. There are a lot of years a great team in the North or West loses one game at Divisionals and if the team they lost to gets second, they can't challenge. Their season is over because of one bad game. In the South, you can lose, then lose in the divisional championship some years and still make it to state. That margin for error is a massive advantage. That's beside the point a little bit, but it would be complicated on how you'd add them to the already-too-big southern conference. From 2007 to 2019, 11 out of 12 state champions came from either the North or the West. Southern B has hardly been dominant, and in fact you could pretty easily say they've been inferior in the last 15 or so years.

The proposed solution has been to come up with a southwest B, where you'd take Three Forks, Manhattan, Boulder, Townsend, Whitehall, Anaconda, and Deer Lodge, along with MAYBE Columbus and Big Timber and start a new conference. That's a haul from say Anaconda to Colubus, but not as far as Troy to Anaconda. If Manhattan Christian joined too, that would be hard to justify one superconference. I'm not sure it will ever happen though, with Bigfork moving to A and Troy on the edge of moving to C.

In basketball, as a Class B guy, I think they'd be very competitive if they moved up. I think the highest level of Class B and Class C could compete most years with the highest level of Class A in hoops. Football is a different story, but the MHSA allows smaller Class B schools to play 8 man now, so that's where they'd belong.
Actually they need to get rid of the districts. There are about 40 teams. Split them up four ways. Top two from each to state. Mhsa will resist that because that’s a level of trophies that don’t get handed out.

They’d be competitive for sure, but they won’t be going to state as often and that won’t sit well with them.
I agree. We did away with district tournaments in Western B for a couple years and the MHSA didn't really care. We still had districts, just not a tournament. MHSA sent regular season trophies but they seemed fine with not having the expense of the extra trophies. You could still do 5 team districts (it's been done before and that's why we did away with district tournaments...fairly pointless) and that helps with seeding. With 10 teams you'd fill up your whole schedule with conference games in basketball, and you couldn't play everybody in football.

And I'm not saying MCHS should move up...I don't really have an opinion there. I do think they could and they'd stay pretty competitive in most sports.


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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by WaMTBobcat » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:14 pm

wapiti wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:53 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:05 am
Historically, the Western C ranks last in hoops in Montana, although it has improved over the last 10 years or so. MCHS is usually not as good as its season record.

If it moved to B it would have to compete in the Southern B (only 3 divisions in B), which is the top B division. Mchs would have a difficult time getting to state out of that division. This year four teams advance from Southern B but I’m not sure that’s an every year thing.

They would be in the same district with Three Forks, which consistently puts out good boys teams. Manhattan has also been solid the past few years.

I can see why MCHS doesn’t want to go to B. It has a huge competitive (due to lack of competition) advantage in the Western C.
MCHS just beat ranked class B team Manhattan by 5 and their best player is hobbled with an ankle injury. This years team and the past 4 would be competitive at the state level in class B.
Manhattan Christian boys have won 19 out of the last 20 games vs Manhattan High over the last 10 seasons and including 12 or 13 in a row.

Manhattan Christian girls have won 7 out of the last 8 over Manhattan high.

Manhattan Christian plays much of the 5B on a regular basis and has had tremendous success over the past 10 years with a Class C size enrollment while being held strictly to transfer rules and an “established attendance area” pertaining to transfers. While I agree that the competition may be better if they move up, they have established a culture of success and are held to the rules. Despite many accusations of recruiting, 95% of many of these rosters over the years have been made up of kids who attended there from Kindergarten or had at least 1 parent that attended and graduated from Manhattan Christian.



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Re: Manhattan Christian loses

Post by TomCat88 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:58 pm

WaMTBobcat wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:14 pm
wapiti wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:53 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:05 am
Historically, the Western C ranks last in hoops in Montana, although it has improved over the last 10 years or so. MCHS is usually not as good as its season record.

If it moved to B it would have to compete in the Southern B (only 3 divisions in B), which is the top B division. Mchs would have a difficult time getting to state out of that division. This year four teams advance from Southern B but I’m not sure that’s an every year thing.

They would be in the same district with Three Forks, which consistently puts out good boys teams. Manhattan has also been solid the past few years.

I can see why MCHS doesn’t want to go to B. It has a huge competitive (due to lack of competition) advantage in the Western C.
MCHS just beat ranked class B team Manhattan by 5 and their best player is hobbled with an ankle injury. This years team and the past 4 would be competitive at the state level in class B.
Manhattan Christian boys have won 19 out of the last 20 games vs Manhattan High over the last 10 seasons and including 12 or 13 in a row.

Manhattan Christian girls have won 7 out of the last 8 over Manhattan high.

Manhattan Christian plays much of the 5B on a regular basis and has had tremendous success over the past 10 years with a Class C size enrollment while being held strictly to transfer rules and an “established attendance area” pertaining to transfers. While I agree that the competition may be better if they move up, they have established a culture of success and are held to the rules. Despite many accusations of recruiting, 95% of many of these rosters over the years have been made up of kids who attended there from Kindergarten or had at least 1 parent that attended and graduated from Manhattan Christian.
Manhattan Christian is not going to do as well in the Southern B or district 5B as it does in the Western C and its district. They’ll be competitive. They want to stay in C in part because they’ve always been in C but mainly because they like going to the state tournaments and they won’t be able to do that as often in B as they do in C.

If the southern B is going to send four teams to state every year, that would be helpful. There’s a lot more consistently good teams in southern B than Western C. Still MC will be having a hard time being in the top four of the southern B than it will being in the top two in the western C.

They’re in the midst of their best era of BBB. That isn’t going to last forever. Once they dip down they’ll most likely have a relatively long run of no state tournament appearances if they’re in B. There will be years that they don’t get out of their own district tournament. Only three teams go (southern B) has a play-in game) and 5B has years where 3-4 teams are very competitive and one slip up can essentially knock you out.


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