Shot Clock

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Hawks86
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Shot Clock

Post by Hawks86 » Wed May 12, 2021 4:55 pm



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kennethnoisewater
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by kennethnoisewater » Mon May 17, 2021 1:32 pm

I don't think it's a bad idea, but I think it's going to be a tough sell state-wide. If Class C is on board, it'll happen. Most votes in this state go by what the smaller schools want if it includes all classifications. There are so many more voting members in the MHSA among the small schools. There are a couple hundred between A-B-C, while there are 16 AA schools, and each vote carries the same weight.

So for a school to adopt it, there are a lot of changes. Obviously you have to add a shot clock, first and foremost. If you have a scoreboard system that can accommodate a shot clock, you spend a couple thousand bucks and get the clocks themselves with a controller. Wiring should be minimal to get power to it, and the school's maintenance staff could probably handle that task. If you don't have scoreboards that support it, that's about $5,000 apiece (minimum) to get a new scoreboard and control--without a shot clock. Another thing to consider is that for every game, a school has to pay (or find volunteers for) an official scorekeeper, clock operator, and obviously the refs. This is in addition to ticket takers, custodians, etc. So I think you'd have to pay one more person to handle the shot clock, although I admit I don't know how that part works. If you do, you have to find a place to put them at the scorer's table, and most small schools don't have any extra space at those tables.

There are roughly 200 schools in Montana, and most of them would need to buy shot clocks (and don't forget about getting the second gym at a school equipped for those c-squad games) and other equipment. I think it's fair to say adding shot clocks would cost anywhere from $1M to $2M in the first year here in Montana just in equipment. It's not just a rule change that needs to be considered. Having said that, I saw we figure out how to make it happen!


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coloradocat
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by coloradocat » Mon May 17, 2021 4:49 pm

If it wasn't an all or nothing proposal I think it would have a much better chance. The AA and A schools would easily be able to afford the cost but there are so many small B and C schools that it might be too much for them and they might just think it's unnecessary.


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Hawks86
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Hawks86 » Tue May 18, 2021 8:49 am

Why can't they just vote on allowing the ones who want it to implement it ? They let 8-man football have a neutral site championship without everyone else voting on it.


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Wrangler
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Wrangler » Sat May 22, 2021 8:06 am

My personal opinion is that it is unnecessary, and a complete waste of money. Honestly, what percentage of the possessions will actually be affected by the shot clock? 2%? Furthermore, why are we taking a strategic tool that requires a significant amount of skill to implement away from teams that choose to use it? It takes some serious ball-handling skills to successfully alter the flow of a game through slowdown techniques. We don’t require a football game to pass the ball. We allow them to grind it out on the ground all night long…..



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Re: Shot Clock

Post by ilovethecats » Sat May 22, 2021 8:48 am

Wrangler wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 8:06 am
My personal opinion is that it is unnecessary, and a complete waste of money. Honestly, what percentage of the possessions will actually be affected by the shot clock? 2%? Furthermore, why are we taking a strategic tool that requires a significant amount of skill to implement away from teams that choose to use it? It takes some serious ball-handling skills to successfully alter the flow of a game through slowdown techniques. We don’t require a football game to pass the ball. We allow them to grind it out on the ground all night long…..
We don't require football teams to pass, but we do require them to get a play off within a certain time frame. Like almost all sports at most levels. Can you imagine if a team took the lead and then just waited 5 minutes to snap the ball? I have seen out-matched teams in high school hoops do this all of the time. If they have a lead or are even in a close game against a better opponent, they go into four corners, and literally can make possessions take minutes. It's terrible.

One game that always stands out is a playoff game in the early 2000's between Helena High and Bozeman. Bozeman was stacked that year. Helena literally started the game completely stalling. Didn't even attempt to score, and basically stood around for the entire quarter. This is an extreme example, but I have seen similar tactics from high school all the way down to 4th and 5th graders in tournies around the state.

Other than the potential high costs to implement this throughout the state at all levels, I have yet to see how a shot clock worsens the overall product. I HAVE seen how no shot clock worsens the product.



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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Wrangler » Sat May 22, 2021 10:45 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 8:48 am

We don't require football teams to pass, but we do require them to get a play off within a certain time frame. Like almost all sports at most levels. Can you imagine if a team took the lead and then just waited 5 minutes to snap the ball? I have seen out-matched teams in high school hoops do this all of the time. If they have a lead or are even in a close game against a better opponent, they go into four corners, and literally can make possessions take minutes. It's terrible.
If your opponent slows the game down, and you don’t like it, play some defense and get the ball back. Force a turnover. Basketball isn't just an offensive game. I completely understand what you’re talking about, but I think the shot clock deal is primarily about pleasing fans, rather than improving the quality of play.

This is just my opinion. I realize that most people don’t agree. Heck, most of my friends disagree with me on this subject!



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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 am

What was the score at halftime the night Idaho State froze out the Bobcats in the Fieldhouse? I think it was 8-0 in favor of the Bengals. The ‘Cats tried to get the ball away, but eventually would make a mistake and there would go a layup. I do not remember if any of those points were free throws. The game was so slow even in the second half that the official scorekeeper must have gone to sleep, as two Bobcat points were awarded to the Bengals — and the error was never corrected. Not sure who shot clocks are for, but I’d have paid out of pocket that night for one.

Could high school teams be given exactly one minute, and just keep track of it on the main scoreboard? Maybe the scorer’s table could sound a ten-second warning. Shot clocks without the clock. It’s not perfect but for the 2% of the games that need it — good enough.



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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Cataholic » Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 pm

Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 am
What was the score at halftime the night Idaho State froze out the Bobcats in the Fieldhouse? I think it was 8-0 in favor of the Bengals. The ‘Cats tried to get the ball away, but eventually would make a mistake and there would go a layup. I do not remember if any of those points were free throws. The game was so slow even in the second half that the official scorekeeper must have gone to sleep, as two Bobcat points were awarded to the Bengals — and the error was never corrected. Not sure who shot clocks are for, but I’d have paid out of pocket that night for one.

Could high school teams be given exactly one minute, and just keep track of it on the main scoreboard? Maybe the scorer’s table could sound a ten-second warning. Shot clocks without the clock. It’s not perfect but for the 2% of the games that need it — good enough.
I can tell your from experience that running the clock is very hectic and stressful. Lots of things to keep track of and focus on. At least for me, it would be unrealistic to keep track of another time component with the same equipment and staffing. It would lead to other critical errors such as score, timeouts, possession, team fouls, etc.



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Re: Shot Clock

Post by ilovethecats » Sun May 23, 2021 1:46 pm

Wrangler wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 10:45 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 8:48 am

We don't require football teams to pass, but we do require them to get a play off within a certain time frame. Like almost all sports at most levels. Can you imagine if a team took the lead and then just waited 5 minutes to snap the ball? I have seen out-matched teams in high school hoops do this all of the time. If they have a lead or are even in a close game against a better opponent, they go into four corners, and literally can make possessions take minutes. It's terrible.
If your opponent slows the game down, and you don’t like it, play some defense and get the ball back. Force a turnover. Basketball isn't just an offensive game. I completely understand what you’re talking about, but I think the shot clock deal is primarily about pleasing fans, rather than improving the quality of play.

This is just my opinion. I realize that most people don’t agree. Heck, most of my friends disagree with me on this subject!
I understand, but getting the ball back when the offense is deliberately stalling is much harder than just playing defense and forcing a turnover. It’s why during end of game scenarios the defense is just forced to foul to stop the clock. If it was just as easy to play tougher defense and force a turnover they’d never waste the fouls.

What I have seen happen in these situations is the better team will put in their last 5 on the bench and send them out to run wild and foul. Not always intentionally dirty, but I have seen those situations as well.

Trying to hold onto the ball for 8 minutes isn’t basketball in my opinion. Would love to see a shot clock in high school too.



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Bobcat4Ever
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Sun May 23, 2021 11:40 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 pm
Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 am
What was the score at halftime the night Idaho State froze out the Bobcats in the Fieldhouse? I think it was 8-0 in favor of the Bengals. The ‘Cats tried to get the ball away, but eventually would make a mistake and there would go a layup. I do not remember if any of those points were free throws. The game was so slow even in the second half that the official scorekeeper must have gone to sleep, as two Bobcat points were awarded to the Bengals — and the error was never corrected. Not sure who shot clocks are for, but I’d have paid out of pocket that night for one.

Could high school teams be given exactly one minute, and just keep track of it on the main scoreboard? Maybe the scorer’s table could sound a ten-second warning. Shot clocks without the clock. It’s not perfect but for the 2% of the games that need it — good enough.
I can tell your from experience that running the clock is very hectic and stressful. Lots of things to keep track of and focus on. At least for me, it would be unrealistic to keep track of another time component with the same equipment and staffing. It would lead to other critical errors such as score, timeouts, possession, team fouls, etc.
I happily defer to your experience. It would definitely need another person. I don’t know how many stat keepers help with ticking off rebounds, etc. Any volunteers? All paid? MSU Volleyball probably still uses volunteer spotters. Even if someone was trained and paid — I was just trying to think of a way to keep the game on track without requiring additional expensive equipment.



Cataholic
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Cataholic » Mon May 24, 2021 7:44 am

Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 11:40 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 pm
Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 am
What was the score at halftime the night Idaho State froze out the Bobcats in the Fieldhouse? I think it was 8-0 in favor of the Bengals. The ‘Cats tried to get the ball away, but eventually would make a mistake and there would go a layup. I do not remember if any of those points were free throws. The game was so slow even in the second half that the official scorekeeper must have gone to sleep, as two Bobcat points were awarded to the Bengals — and the error was never corrected. Not sure who shot clocks are for, but I’d have paid out of pocket that night for one.

Could high school teams be given exactly one minute, and just keep track of it on the main scoreboard? Maybe the scorer’s table could sound a ten-second warning. Shot clocks without the clock. It’s not perfect but for the 2% of the games that need it — good enough.
I can tell your from experience that running the clock is very hectic and stressful. Lots of things to keep track of and focus on. At least for me, it would be unrealistic to keep track of another time component with the same equipment and staffing. It would lead to other critical errors such as score, timeouts, possession, team fouls, etc.
I happily defer to your experience. It would definitely need another person. I don’t know how many stat keepers help with ticking off rebounds, etc. Any volunteers? All paid? MSU Volleyball probably still uses volunteer spotters. Even if someone was trained and paid — I was just trying to think of a way to keep the game on track without requiring additional expensive equipment.
I am sure you can get volunteers, but the bigger issue will be equipment. In today’s tech world, there is probably a low cost way to add a basic shot clock. I bet there is even an app for a shot clock that could be run on a Video Monitor. Probably the bigger question is what the MHSA will allow to suffice for a shot clock. For example, does it have to be mounted on top of the backboard?



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Re: Shot Clock

Post by PapaG » Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:47 pm

Seems odd that the classifications can’t vote on it themselves. Even if only AA votes for it for the season and State and if they play an A or B team at home, they just don’t use the shot clock. Seems like a simple thing but then again when bureaucrats are involved, nothing is simple.


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