Griz Fans and The Trial

[BWahlberg]

I think the OP is right there are definitely some fans that have come across as showing that they don't care IF JJ really "did it" but just want him to be innocent for the sake of the team moving forward.

I had a talk with someone at the Kaimin the other day and they asked me about how I think the trial is going. I told them that it's tough to interpret because as a fan I just have a natural bias to hoping that Jordan did not do what he's accused of. I (like many fans) have an emotional investment in him, I've cheered for him and I hope the best for him. So when I get the never-ending flow of tweets that come my way I put my own bias on that information. The take-away I get is that I think the defense is doing a very good job (as do many Griz fans).

However this week I've become aware to that an I've tried to look at this whole trial through a lens of impartiality. While the info from the trial so far this week hasn't done much to me, what has stood out is the comments by a select few fans on egriz. And now that main thread has been linked to an SFGate.com blog. You've got fans calling the accuser a "jersey-chasing slut" and other worse names, or have tried to post her name and wanted her "run out of town", I mean... the more I look at it the more I cringe at the comments. I even reacted to one today who put a post up towards Gwen Florio hinting that she couldn't be raped even if she asked for it. Some posters responses have really made me sick, even if JJ is acquitted on the charge I think the way some of our fans have handled this on the message board has been horrid.

I hope Jordan didn't do this, I want him to be acquitted for his own sake if he didn't rape this lady. I realize I'm biased in building this opinion and so in many cases I just keep my damn mouth shut. I wish some more of our fans would do the same.

[Rich K]

I think the OP is right there are definitely some fans that have come across as showing that they don't care IF JJ really "did it" but just want him to be innocent for the sake of the team moving forward.

I had a talk with someone at the Kaimin the other day and they asked me about how I think the trial is going. I told them that it's tough to interpret because as a fan I just have a natural bias to hoping that Jordan did not do what he's accused of. I (like many fans) have an emotional investment in him, I've cheered for him and I hope the best for him. So when I get the never-ending flow of tweets that come my way I put my own bias on that information. The take-away I get is that I think the defense is doing a very good job (as do many Griz fans).

However this week I've become aware to that an I've tried to look at this whole trial through a lens of impartiality. While the info from the trial so far this week hasn't done much to me, what has stood out is the comments by a select few fans on egriz. And now that main thread has been linked to an SFGate.com blog. You've got fans calling the accuser a "jersey-chasing slut" and other worse names, or have tried to post her name and wanted her "run out of town", I mean... the more I look at it the more I cringe at the comments. I even reacted to one today who put a post up towards Gwen Florio hinting that she couldn't be raped even if she asked for it. Some posters responses have really made me sick, even if JJ is acquitted on the charge I think the way some of our fans have handled this on the message board has been horrid.

I hope Jordan didn't do this, I want him to be acquitted for his own sake if he didn't rape this lady. I realize I'm biased in building this opinion and so in many cases I just keep my damn mouth shut. I wish some more of our fans would do the same.

Thanks for the words. When this is all said and done there will be strong lingering bitterness regardless of the verdict. People with your apparent level headedness will be needed or it'll rip apart more than just a couple of threads on egriz or bbn.

[Sportin' Life]

I think the OP is right there are definitely some fans that have come across as showing that they don't care IF JJ really "did it" but just want him to be innocent for the sake of the team moving forward.

I had a talk with someone at the Kaimin the other day and they asked me about how I think the trial is going. I told them that it's tough to interpret because as a fan I just have a natural bias to hoping that Jordan did not do what he's accused of. I (like many fans) have an emotional investment in him, I've cheered for him and I hope the best for him. So when I get the never-ending flow of tweets that come my way I put my own bias on that information. The take-away I get is that I think the defense is doing a very good job (as do many Griz fans).

However this week I've become aware to that an I've tried to look at this whole trial through a lens of impartiality. While the info from the trial so far this week hasn't done much to me, what has stood out is the comments by a select few fans on egriz. And now that main thread has been linked to an SFGate.com blog. You've got fans calling the accuser a "jersey-chasing slut" and other worse names, or have tried to post her name and wanted her "run out of town", I mean... the more I look at it the more I cringe at the comments. I even reacted to one today who put a post up towards Gwen Florio hinting that she couldn't be raped even if she asked for it. Some posters responses have really made me sick, even if JJ is acquitted on the charge I think the way some of our fans have handled this on the message board has been horrid.

I hope Jordan didn't do this, I want him to be acquitted for his own sake if he didn't rape this lady. I realize I'm biased in building this opinion and so in many cases I just keep my damn mouth shut. I wish some more of our fans would do the same.

I really agree with all of that. I don't know if I have a bias toward Johnson just because I have cheered for him on the football field though. It is a tough case all around, and I know the girl has been through something, and I don't believe she premeditated the whole thing. My opinion is he probably did take physical advantage of the girl, but if I were on the jury there is no way I would vote guilty because the criterion of being beyond a reasonable doubt has not been met. And barring a shocking mistake by Johnson on the stand I don't think it can be met. The system is designed to let more guilty people off than imprison innocent people and that is the way it should be.

I think it is clear that the program has reached a tipping point for problems and anyone with their head out of the sand knows it. Does that mean that it required the drastic action taken by Engstrom? It is debatable. Does that mean that Florio hasn't sensationalized the case? Of course not. But still at the end of the day the Griz football program (including the fanbase) needs to have its house in order, and not worry about Engstrom or Florio or Pat Williams or any other perceived attack.

[TomCat88]

I think the OP is right there are definitely some fans that have come across as showing that they don't care IF JJ really "did it" but just want him to be innocent for the sake of the team moving forward.

I had a talk with someone at the Kaimin the other day and they asked me about how I think the trial is going. I told them that it's tough to interpret because as a fan I just have a natural bias to hoping that Jordan did not do what he's accused of. I (like many fans) have an emotional investment in him, I've cheered for him and I hope the best for him. So when I get the never-ending flow of tweets that come my way I put my own bias on that information. The take-away I get is that I think the defense is doing a very good job (as do many Griz fans).

However this week I've become aware to that an I've tried to look at this whole trial through a lens of impartiality. While the info from the trial so far this week hasn't done much to me, what has stood out is the comments by a select few fans on egriz. And now that main thread has been linked to an SFGate.com blog. You've got fans calling the accuser a "jersey-chasing slut" and other worse names, or have tried to post her name and wanted her "run out of town", I mean... the more I look at it the more I cringe at the comments. I even reacted to one today who put a post up towards Gwen Florio hinting that she couldn't be raped even if she asked for it. Some posters responses have really made me sick, even if JJ is acquitted on the charge I think the way some of our fans have handled this on the message board has been horrid.

I hope Jordan didn't do this, I want him to be acquitted for his own sake if he didn't rape this lady. I realize I'm biased in building this opinion and so in many cases I just keep my damn mouth shut. I wish some more of our fans would do the same.

Awesome for you. You did the right thing. I have numerous relatives that attended UM and it sucks for me to see them and the look they have on their faces when talking about the things going on. I can honestly say I get no joy from that at all. I spent the weekend of the UM-UND game with my brother, sister, three nephews, and two nieces. All big Griz fans and it was like being around seven completely different people as we watched the game. I don't wish that on any sports fan.

You're a leader on that board and I see it's paid off as I believe it was the TV (or radio) that contacted you to talk about UM recruiting. You must've been flattered and it must've made you feel like the work you do for that web site has been worthwhile. I know that's how I would've felt. You should be proud of yourself.

Anyway, I encourage you to keep working on those few (very few in the grand scheme of things) people that have taken things too far with their comments about the accuser. Of course you want for him to not have done it for numerous reasons and there's nothing at all wrong with that. But to stand by while others behave in a way unbecoming of your school would be wrong, IMO. You remind me of John McCain stepping forward when the woman was saying Obama was a Muslim or whatever. Again, job well done.

[catatac]

I think the OP is right there are definitely some fans that have come across as showing that they don't care IF JJ really "did it" but just want him to be innocent for the sake of the team moving forward.

I had a talk with someone at the Kaimin the other day and they asked me about how I think the trial is going. I told them that it's tough to interpret because as a fan I just have a natural bias to hoping that Jordan did not do what he's accused of. I (like many fans) have an emotional investment in him, I've cheered for him and I hope the best for him. So when I get the never-ending flow of tweets that come my way I put my own bias on that information. The take-away I get is that I think the defense is doing a very good job (as do many Griz fans).

However this week I've become aware to that an I've tried to look at this whole trial through a lens of impartiality. While the info from the trial so far this week hasn't done much to me, what has stood out is the comments by a select few fans on egriz. And now that main thread has been linked to an SFGate.com blog. You've got fans calling the accuser a "jersey-chasing slut" and other worse names, or have tried to post her name and wanted her "run out of town", I mean... the more I look at it the more I cringe at the comments. I even reacted to one today who put a post up towards Gwen Florio hinting that she couldn't be raped even if she asked for it. Some posters responses have really made me sick, even if JJ is acquitted on the charge I think the way some of our fans have handled this on the message board has been horrid.

I hope Jordan didn't do this, I want him to be acquitted for his own sake if he didn't rape this lady. I realize I'm biased in building this opinion and so in many cases I just keep my damn mouth shut. I wish some more of our fans would do the same.

Ya, totally agree it would be tough to be impartial looking at this. If this were our QB on trial I'd probably be looking at the case through blue and gold lenses, and convincing myself that she HAD to have made up. For the record, my gut feeling is that he did not rape her and she probably needs some help. Of course, I probably would have thought Beau Donaldson was innocent as well until the recorded evidence came out.

[CapitalCityCat]

great post BWahlberg.

[Cat_gld]

great post BWahlberg.

ditto!! BW, I don't think your point could have been expressed any better than that.

[Cat in NC]

great post BWahlberg.

Ditto that!

And, for those of you who don't follow eGriz on a regular basis, all I can say is that I highly recommend visiting solely to see the way that Brint slaughtered the alter ego of a certain "pickled cucumber" of a poster. It was legendary and very much deserved.

[Grizlaw]

I don't usually like to post just to say "good post" when I have nothing else to add, but BW's post did convey my own feelings pretty well...

[Joe Bobcat]

Great post BW!
As this trial gets closer to ending I just can't imagine all 12 jurors voting one way or the other innocent or guilty. Right now I could see it way closer to all 12 saying innocent but who knows.
So lately I have been wondering if there would be a certain split in the vote that would in some small way help diffuse some of the anger and tension that seems to build up in cases like this.
Obviously a 12 to 0 vote either way would be viewed by many as a slam dunk for justice by some and a travesty of justice by others.
Would a 6 to 6 vote make matters better or worse or is there some other ratio that is better?
The only thing that could really come the closest to clearing the whole mess up is if one of the two would say either "Stop he didn't do it" or "Stop she's right I did it". Well that doesn't look like it is going to happen.
I pray for justice, healing, and forgiveness no matter what the verdict may be.

[wbtfg]

missoulian ‏@missoulian
From the audience just now before trial resumes: "First down, Montana." A greeting from one man. #johnsontrial

[[cat_bracket]]

missoulian ‏@missoulian
From the audience just now before trial resumes: "First down, Montana." A greeting from one man. #johnsontrial

And then someone busted out their boom box and started playing Cotton-eyed Joe as Monte crashed into the judge's chambers on his Harley. Jim O'Day is leading the wave. Will it make Good Morning America?

[tampa_griz]

missoulian ‏@missoulian
From the audience just now before trial resumes: "First down, Montana." A greeting from one man. #johnsontrial

[CPrice91]

However this week I've become aware to that an I've tried to look at this whole trial through a lens of impartiality. While the info from the trial so far this week hasn't done much to me, what has stood out is the comments by a select few fans on egriz. And now that main thread has been linked to an SFGate.com blog. You've got fans calling the accuser a "jersey-chasing slut" and other worse names, or have tried to post her name and wanted her "run out of town", I mean... the more I look at it the more I cringe at the comments. I even reacted to one today who put a post up towards Gwen Florio hinting that she couldn't be raped even if she asked for it. Some posters responses have really made me sick, even if JJ is acquitted on the charge I think the way some of our fans have handled this on the message board has been horrid.

I hope Jordan didn't do this, I want him to be acquitted for his own sake if he didn't rape this lady. I realize I'm biased in building this opinion and so in many cases I just keep my damn mouth shut. I wish some more of our fans would do the same.

It's those types of fans that (even before I considered myself a "cat fan") have had me rooting for the Griz to lose every football game they play, and fans like that which absolutely have a small part of me trying to convince myself that JJ is guilty of what he is charged, and spends as much time as possible in prison feeling that guilt. (Again, though, taking a step back from my visceral, emotional bias and looking at it rationally, this trial is a lose-lose for all involved, and as has been said only two people know what actually happened).

That being said, I couldn't be happier for all the Griz fans that do occasionally come on here and prove my base emotional response toward everything "Griz football" wrong. It keeps me in my place as a fan (or perhaps one could say, as an "anti-Griz" fan), and I quite appreciate it (and I assume I'm not the only one). Thank you for that.



Anyways, that aside - as someone who has not been following this trial very closely, has anyone been able to get a sense of the way the jury has been reacting to all that has been unfolding? Any impression as to where they may be leaning, or even a guess? Or is that something that's very hard to decipher without being directly involved in the trial (working the trial in some way)?

[BWahlberg]

Anyways, that aside - as someone who has not been following this trial very closely, has anyone been able to get a sense of the way the jury has been reacting to all that has been unfolding? Any impression as to where they may be leaning, or even a guess? Or is that something that's very hard to decipher without being directly involved in the trial (working the trial in some way)?

So here's my read:

- If you follow it on twitter alone or as your major source it's pretty clear the text that has been shown proves a ton of reasonable doubt. My guess is maybe acquittal or maybe a hung jury. You see lots of holes in the accusers statements, lots of questions of professional conduct following the incident, and a strong/solid argument put forth by the defense. The accuser's timeline has lots of holes in it and changes to it, there are defense professionals debunking the prosecution professionals, and witnesses that are putting forth a lot of questions about where the truth really lies.

- If you follow it mostly in the printed paper it's pretty clear that Johnson committed the assault. There's a marginal to low chance of a hung jury however it's clear that the accuser's timeline is solid and the emotional toll on her and her actions around her peers verify that. It would suggest the prosecution witnesses have brought forth clear and convincing accounts of emotional distress and the defense's witnesses have been largely skewered by the prosecution on cross.

- If you have been sitting in the courtroom (I haven't but I've talked frequently to two people who have been). It's a total rodeo. Up and down, up and down. Can't get a read on the jury, the ongoing and never-ending amount of objections keep flowing, and there's really sense as to which way this may go.


So.......... there you have it.

[CPrice91]

Anyways, that aside - as someone who has not been following this trial very closely, has anyone been able to get a sense of the way the jury has been reacting to all that has been unfolding? Any impression as to where they may be leaning, or even a guess? Or is that something that's very hard to decipher without being directly involved in the trial (working the trial in some way)?

So here's my read:

- If you follow it on twitter alone or as your major source it's pretty clear the text that has been shown proves a ton of reasonable doubt. My guess is maybe acquittal or maybe a hung jury. You see lots of holes in the accusers statements, lots of questions of professional conduct following the incident, and a strong/solid argument put forth by the defense. The accuser's timeline has lots of holes in it and changes to it, there are defense professionals debunking the prosecution professionals, and witnesses that are putting forth a lot of questions about where the truth really lies.

- If you follow it mostly in the printed paper it's pretty clear that Johnson committed the assault. There's a marginal to low chance of a hung jury however it's clear that the accuser's timeline is solid and the emotional toll on her and her actions around her peers verify that. It would suggest the prosecution witnesses have brought forth clear and convincing accounts of emotional distress and the defense's witnesses have been largely skewered by the prosecution on cross.

- If you have been sitting in the courtroom (I haven't but I've talked frequently to two people who have been). It's a total rodeo. Up and down, up and down. Can't get a read on the jury, the ongoing and never-ending amount of objections keep flowing, and there's really sense as to which way this may go.


So.......... there you have it.

So, complete and total circus regarding the potential outcome. Lovely.

Danke schon.

[TomCat88]

Anyways, that aside - as someone who has not been following this trial very closely, has anyone been able to get a sense of the way the jury has been reacting to all that has been unfolding? Any impression as to where they may be leaning, or even a guess? Or is that something that's very hard to decipher without being directly involved in the trial (working the trial in some way)?

So here's my read:

- If you follow it on twitter alone or as your major source it's pretty clear the text that has been shown proves a ton of reasonable doubt. My guess is maybe acquittal or maybe a hung jury. You see lots of holes in the accusers statements, lots of questions of professional conduct following the incident, and a strong/solid argument put forth by the defense. The accuser's timeline has lots of holes in it and changes to it, there are defense professionals debunking the prosecution professionals, and witnesses that are putting forth a lot of questions about where the truth really lies.

- If you follow it mostly in the printed paper it's pretty clear that Johnson committed the assault. There's a marginal to low chance of a hung jury however it's clear that the accuser's timeline is solid and the emotional toll on her and her actions around her peers verify that. It would suggest the prosecution witnesses have brought forth clear and convincing accounts of emotional distress and the defense's witnesses have been largely skewered by the prosecution on cross.

- If you have been sitting in the courtroom (I haven't but I've talked frequently to two people who have been). It's a total rodeo. Up and down, up and down. Can't get a read on the jury, the ongoing and never-ending amount of objections keep flowing, and there's really sense as to which way this may go.


So.......... there you have it.

So, complete and total circus regarding the potential outcome. Lovely.

Danke schon.

I don't think that's what he meant. I'm fairly certain it'll either be a hung jury or acquittal. I've yet to hear anyone say it will be a guilty verdict. Johnson hurt himself on the stand today, but it won't cost him his freedom.

[CPrice91]

I'm still reading it as two biased sources and a circus-like courtroom atmosphere? Eh, whatever. I agree that considering the need for clear-cut proof to justly put somehow in a jail cell for multiple years, it would seem the only option is to acquit, or end up with a hung jury with no re-trial. However, I'm not in the courtroom and more importantly not watching the jury deliberate, so considering the circus-like atmosphere, who knows what could happen?


That's what I'm reading into everything (albeit at a distance), anyways.

[TomCat88]

I'm still reading it as two biased sources and a circus-like courtroom atmosphere? Eh, whatever. I agree that considering the need for clear-cut proof to justly put somehow in a jail cell for multiple years, it would seem the only option is to acquit, or end up with a hung jury with no re-trial. However, I'm not in the courtroom and more importantly not watching the jury deliberate, so considering the circus-like atmosphere, who knows what could happen?


That's what I'm reading it to everything (albeit at a distance), anyways.

I uinderstand what you mean. I just, despite the circus-like atmospher, can't see how the jury could return a 12-0 guilty verdict.

[GRZZ]

Anyways, that aside - as someone who has not been following this trial very closely, has anyone been able to get a sense of the way the jury has been reacting to all that has been unfolding? Any impression as to where they may be leaning, or even a guess? Or is that something that's very hard to decipher without being directly involved in the trial (working the trial in some way)?

So here's my read:

- If you follow it on twitter alone or as your major source it's pretty clear the text that has been shown proves a ton of reasonable doubt. My guess is maybe acquittal or maybe a hung jury. You see lots of holes in the accusers statements, lots of questions of professional conduct following the incident, and a strong/solid argument put forth by the defense. The accuser's timeline has lots of holes in it and changes to it, there are defense professionals debunking the prosecution professionals, and witnesses that are putting forth a lot of questions about where the truth really lies.

- If you follow it mostly in the printed paper it's pretty clear that Johnson committed the assault. There's a marginal to low chance of a hung jury however it's clear that the accuser's timeline is solid and the emotional toll on her and her actions around her peers verify that. It would suggest the prosecution witnesses have brought forth clear and convincing accounts of emotional distress and the defense's witnesses have been largely skewered by the prosecution on cross.

- If you have been sitting in the courtroom (I haven't but I've talked frequently to two people who have been). It's a total rodeo. Up and down, up and down. Can't get a read on the jury, the ongoing and never-ending amount of objections keep flowing, and there's really sense as to which way this may go.


So.......... there you have it.

So, complete and total circus regarding the potential outcome. Lovely.

Danke schon.

I don't think that's what he meant. I'm fairly certain it'll either be a hung jury or acquittal. I've yet to hear anyone say it will be a guilty verdict. Johnson hurt himself on the stand today, but it won't cost him his freedom.

TomCat, I would be curious as to what you think hurt Johnson on the stand today? (Not saying you are wrong at all, honestly just want to discuss it a bit). I am following along on Twitter, as most people on here seem to be, and I wonder if, yet again, the context of the questions and who actually said what was lost in the 140 characters of twitter. When I was reading a long at the time, it seemed like the pinning conversation was a huge thing, but it was hard to determine if the word pinning was just used repetitively in a cadence to drive home the point by Duerk the prosecutor, or if it was Johnson making the statement over and over - and there would be a difference to the jury.

Anyway, as I was following along on twitter at that point, I thought the same thing: that was bad for Johnson. It was one of those moments where nased on what I was reading, I thought he might have done it. However, when Pabst got up and re directed him, the tweets kind of seemed to explain it away. At that point I began to think that this line of questioning may have had much more of an impact on twitter than in the courtroom, because on twitter we don't get the context of who said the word pinning and how it was presented.

After I read the Missoulian article and watched the Good Morning America segment this morning, I am convinced the pinning line of questioning was not nearly as impact full in the courtroom as it was on twitter.

If it had been as big as I initially thought, you can bet that the Missoulian would have mentioned it in their article, and they didn't. http://missoulian.com/news/local/jordan ... 963f4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And the same for GMA " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Abrahms said he didn't hurt himself on the stand and it may have been a net positive for the defense that he took the stand.

Sorry for the long post, I was just curious about your thoughts because I had the same ones initially just through twitter.