Bobby's 3-3-5 Defense

[MrGoodKat]

The Griz are pretty small on the defensive line to run the 3-3-5 super effectively. Ramos is the only guy with any real size who gets a lot of run (I'm pretty sure than Ramos and Bailey are the only guys on the entire roster above 275). The guys playing that 4i/5T role are 240-250.

On most plays, the Cats are fielding at least two players in the range of 280-300 lbs (Brott, Eckert, Marsh, Black, Sharbono, Asuega, etc.). Their down ends are roughly the same size as UM's, despite playing further on the edges.

When your line is designed to primarily 2 gap and create opportunities for linebackers, you want them to be bigger than that. It isn't the only issue with their defense, but it's certainly one of them.

Rogers Cooper is very aware that they have some short comings on the interior defensive line. That is why they don't really play a 3-3-5 like they did when Bradford coached them a couple years ago. They almost always run an over or under front and line up a LB on the LOS as a buck or bandit end very similar to a 4-2-5 like the cats. And actually with the depth they have at LB their nickel generally plays close to the LOS too. So their defense resembles a 4-2-5 or even a 3-4-4. Their defensive scheme is hard to deal with and they have good players and their LB's play scrape pretty well so they are not easy to run on.

It's hard to deal with on both sides. It's difficult for opposing offenses to read, but it's also difficult for their defensive personnel to execute.

For what it's worth, they've allowed 25.8 PPG in conference play to the Cats' 10.2.

Totally agree, that defense is hard to learn but if they get you on your heels it's a long day for any offense.

I would say it's just a higher risk/reward way of playing defense.

Hauck prefers to live in a world where his defense both creates and allows more explosive plays. Thus, they get burned more often than the Cats' defense, but they also create a lot of big negatives that tend to kill drives. They have 17 sacks and 10 interceptions.

The Cats meanwhile have 12 sacks and 6 interceptions. But they get burned far less often.

I think either approach can work-- it just comes down to personnel. The Cats are overall far more successful on defense not because the they've chosen the right approach, but because they have the much better roster.

The point I initially made about the defensive lineman on the Griz roster goes to this point. I think if their DL was more effective, they wouldn't have to blitz as heavily (they would still blitz of course-- it's fundamental to the scheme) and they could help their corners out a little bit more, who have generally been overmatched.

[seataccat]

The Griz are pretty small on the defensive line to run the 3-3-5 super effectively. Ramos is the only guy with any real size who gets a lot of run (I'm pretty sure than Ramos and Bailey are the only guys on the entire roster above 275). The guys playing that 4i/5T role are 240-250.

On most plays, the Cats are fielding at least two players in the range of 280-300 lbs (Brott, Eckert, Marsh, Black, Sharbono, Asuega, etc.). Their down ends are roughly the same size as UM's, despite playing further on the edges.

When your line is designed to primarily 2 gap and create opportunities for linebackers, you want them to be bigger than that. It isn't the only issue with their defense, but it's certainly one of them.

Rogers Cooper is very aware that they have some short comings on the interior defensive line. That is why they don't really play a 3-3-5 like they did when Bradford coached them a couple years ago. They almost always run an over or under front and line up a LB on the LOS as a buck or bandit end very similar to a 4-2-5 like the cats. And actually with the depth they have at LB their nickel generally plays close to the LOS too. So their defense resembles a 4-2-5 or even a 3-4-4. Their defensive scheme is hard to deal with and they have good players and their LB's play scrape pretty well so they are not easy to run on.

It's hard to deal with on both sides. It's difficult for opposing offenses to read, but it's also difficult for their defensive personnel to execute.

For what it's worth, they've allowed 25.8 PPG in conference play to the Cats' 10.2.

Totally agree, that defense is hard to learn but if they get you on your heels it's a long day for any offense.

I would say it's just a higher risk/reward way of playing defense.

Hauck prefers to live in a world where his defense both creates and allows more explosive plays. Thus, they get burned more often than the Cats' defense, but they also create a lot of big negatives that tend to kill drives. They have 17 sacks and 10 interceptions.

The Cats meanwhile have 12 sacks and 6 interceptions. But they get burned far less often.

I think either approach can work-- it just comes down to personnel. The Cats are overall far more successful on defense not because the they've chosen the right approach, but because they have the much better roster.

The point I initially made about the defensive lineman on the Griz roster goes to this point. I think if their DL was more effective, they wouldn't have to blitz as heavily (they would still blitz of course-- it's fundamental to the scheme) and they could help their corners out a little bit more, who have generally been overmatched.

Ok so we essentially agree that the griz play a high risk high reward defense. We also seem to agree that the griz are thin at interior DL and they do not have the quality depth on defense as the bobcats do.
So my point was that they are running the correct scheme for the players they have recruited and currently have on their roster. They are deep at LB, SS and nickel types. Therefore running an under front modified 3-3-5 as a base defense is the correct alignment for them and it is quite effective. Yes it's a complicated system because they show multiple types of fronts and blitz packages which can be difficult for players that haven't been in the system long. But it's an effective defense.

[MrGoodKat]

The Griz are pretty small on the defensive line to run the 3-3-5 super effectively. Ramos is the only guy with any real size who gets a lot of run (I'm pretty sure than Ramos and Bailey are the only guys on the entire roster above 275). The guys playing that 4i/5T role are 240-250.

On most plays, the Cats are fielding at least two players in the range of 280-300 lbs (Brott, Eckert, Marsh, Black, Sharbono, Asuega, etc.). Their down ends are roughly the same size as UM's, despite playing further on the edges.

When your line is designed to primarily 2 gap and create opportunities for linebackers, you want them to be bigger than that. It isn't the only issue with their defense, but it's certainly one of them.

Rogers Cooper is very aware that they have some short comings on the interior defensive line. That is why they don't really play a 3-3-5 like they did when Bradford coached them a couple years ago. They almost always run an over or under front and line up a LB on the LOS as a buck or bandit end very similar to a 4-2-5 like the cats. And actually with the depth they have at LB their nickel generally plays close to the LOS too. So their defense resembles a 4-2-5 or even a 3-4-4. Their defensive scheme is hard to deal with and they have good players and their LB's play scrape pretty well so they are not easy to run on.

It's hard to deal with on both sides. It's difficult for opposing offenses to read, but it's also difficult for their defensive personnel to execute.

For what it's worth, they've allowed 25.8 PPG in conference play to the Cats' 10.2.

Totally agree, that defense is hard to learn but if they get you on your heels it's a long day for any offense.

I would say it's just a higher risk/reward way of playing defense.

Hauck prefers to live in a world where his defense both creates and allows more explosive plays. Thus, they get burned more often than the Cats' defense, but they also create a lot of big negatives that tend to kill drives. They have 17 sacks and 10 interceptions.

The Cats meanwhile have 12 sacks and 6 interceptions. But they get burned far less often.

I think either approach can work-- it just comes down to personnel. The Cats are overall far more successful on defense not because the they've chosen the right approach, but because they have the much better roster.

The point I initially made about the defensive lineman on the Griz roster goes to this point. I think if their DL was more effective, they wouldn't have to blitz as heavily (they would still blitz of course-- it's fundamental to the scheme) and they could help their corners out a little bit more, who have generally been overmatched.

Ok so we essentially agree that the griz play a high risk high reward defense. We also seem to agree that the griz are thin at interior DL and they do not have the quality depth on defense as the bobcats do.
So my point was that they are running the correct scheme for the players they have recruited and currently have on their roster. They are deep at LB, SS and nickel types. Therefore running an under front modified 3-3-5 as a base defense is the correct alignment for them and it is quite effective. Yes it's a complicated system because they show multiple types of fronts and blitz packages which can be difficult for players that haven't been in the system long. But it's an effective defense.

Yeah I don't think they'd solve anything by moving to a 4-2-5 unless they got different personnel. And I agree that it can be an effective defense. However, I think it's true effectiveness this season has been very hit and miss.

[RickRund]

Reading all the comments it seems Bobby just recruits bodies, not bodies that fill in all the spots correctly.

How many others utilize this defensive setup and how successful is it?

[MrGoodKat]

Reading all the comments it seems Bobby just recruits bodies, not bodies that fill in all the spots correctly.

How many others utilize this defensive setup and how successful is it?

I think he prefers the defensive scheme because he can get by without a lot of really big people. The scheme takes a DL body type off the field and replaces it with a linebacker. Linebacker body types are easier to find. Since he routinely gets beaten out in recruiting battles for big people by the Cats, it's a decent alternative. But it's never going to be able to handle an offensive line like NDSU's or MSU's when they're at their best.

[seataccat]

Reading all the comments it seems Bobby just recruits bodies, not bodies that fill in all the spots correctly.

How many others utilize this defensive setup and how successful is it?

He’s recruiting athletes instead of specialists.

I remember back in the day I was a fan of the 4-3 slide that the University of Miami ran in the late 80’s. It was extremely successful against the power running teams like Nebraska, Oklahoma, Alabama and Notre Dame. The 3-3-5 came from that defense, meaning it incorporates multiple fronts and blitz packages and hybrid DE/LB and LB/S.

[RickRund]

Thanks, appreciated.