The Griz

[catatac]

You can NEVER count the griz out. They have been too big and successful of a program for too long to go to far downhill for too long. They will be back. They lose a lot at RB this year but the team is young. Alpha says they are a QB short. The problem is next year they may be a QB short also. I also think the defense will not be near as good as it was in 2010 and 2011 even with the growth of the young players over the next 2 years. I think they will not dominate again for sometime but barring any MAJOR NCAA penalties they should be in the mix every year.

So... once again... why do all the powerhouse programs eventually fall and go back to a .500 team... but the Griz won't?

who said they wouldn't? most of us are just saying you're not gonna see the griz 0-11 anytime soon. it's not going to be them, unc, and idaho state in the cellar year in and year out. they might even be a .500 team this year. but the foundation of their program and fan support seems to me to be too much to see them having a ton of losing seasons. that was my whole point anyway. the griz might be having a "down" season this year but if they string some wins together they will probably have a winning record. sure it won't be up to the standards that griz fans want....but i don't see them being a bottom dweller anytime soon.

I was just responding to gtapp saying they would never fall too far for too long. It all depends on your perspective. All I've ever said in this thread is that it is entirely possible that they turn into a mediocre team, i.e. .500, for a few years. That's all I said, I never said nor do think they'll be logging zero or one win seasons anytime soon. I do agree with bac though... In that there is probably a difference in comparing FBS versus FCS. And I agree with AG in that if they do turn mediocre and miss playoffs for a few years... They probably will be back. I suppose GSU would be a decent comparison.

[TomCat88]

The major programs have a lot more competition, honestly. All of those programs are spending tons of money, so teams will rise and fall within that upper echelon.

However, in FCS, there truly isn't that kind of competition. Look at the attendance figures, look at the various facilities, and then look at the total revenues the various programs are putting out. Maybe 10% of the FCS programs in the country can really compete with UM in those off-field ways. Most of FCS is to FCS what Idaho is to the SEC. The disparity between haves and have-nots is far more intense in FCS that it seems to be in FBS (meaning the % of programs that simply aren't able to be competitive for Top 10 status on a consistent basis), probably because it's so hard for programs to get ANY kind of financial toe-hold in FCS. So based on that, it would take NCAA sanctions or a huge (continued) show of incompetence by everyone at UM to keep that program from being at very least a BSC contender. They simply have too many resources compared to everyone else to not have quite a bit of success by default.

Yes.

If the BSC were a BCS conference it would have one team (UM) bringing in 100,000 per game another (MSU) bringing in 75,000 per game a handful getting 45,000 and the rest getting 20,000. When the range is 70,000 to 100,000 there's some parity, when it's as described not so much.

[CatsRback]

In college football, where there are such huge disparities between the "haves" and "have nots," no program in the "have" category is going to stay out of the race very long. With the facilities and tradition UM has, their program won't crumble -- they will just have bumps in the road now and then. Short of some huge NCAA penalties, I fully expect to see them back in contention for the BSC crown each year in the future.

At this point, until a lot of other programs come up with a lot of money to surpass them, UM simply drives too much revenue and has too many recruiting advantages (facilities, attendance, nice college town, etc.) to stay down long.

I'd say all of the same things about MSU now as well, fortunately.

I'm not so sure... aren't there several examples out there of programs that were absolutely dominant for several years and then basically slink back into mediocrity? Maybe Miami... or Nebraska is a good example? I remember in the 90's Nebraska was absolutely dominant, I think won 3 national titles in 4 years... lost like two or three games in four years or something stupid like that, and then didn't they hit a wall and hit several .500 season's or worse? Aren't they pretty mediocre today relative to the Big Boys?

NO, you're right. The same could be said about Notre Dame - at least until this year. Same with Texas. Florida State, as well. No team stays on top that long.

The major programs have a lot more competition, honestly. All of those programs are spending tons of money, so teams will rise and fall within that upper echelon.

However, in FCS, there truly isn't that kind of competition. Look at the attendance figures, look at the various facilities, and then look at the total revenues the various programs are putting out. Maybe 10% of the FCS programs in the country can really compete with UM in those off-field ways. Most of FCS is to FCS what Idaho is to the SEC. The disparity between haves and have-nots is far more intense in FCS that it seems to be in FBS (meaning the % of programs that simply aren't able to be competitive for Top 10 status on a consistent basis), probably because it's so hard for programs to get ANY kind of financial toe-hold in FCS. So based on that, it would take NCAA sanctions or a huge (continued) show of incompetence by everyone at UM to keep that program from being at very least a BSC contender. They simply have too many resources compared to everyone else to not have quite a bit of success by default.

Perfectly put Brad. Montana is the Notre Dame of FCS. Players want to go there and the top coaches want to coach there. This year could set them back but back for them is .500 or maybe better!

Seriously, the griz are the "Notre Dame of the FCS????" Let's look at the differences:
1. ND - grades count - if they don't think you can pass freshmen math, you don't get offered...check out back issues of SI - ND turned down multiple All Americans because of high academic standards.. UM ...? not so much on grades
2. ND - high honor code, very FEW off field incidents, no one really questions their comment to on and off field excellence...UM..not so much - it's all about winning football games.

UM would be best prepared to Miami - good school, but not great academically, win at all cost mentality....

[ilovethecats]

not that i agree with your comparisons anyway...but BAC wasn't saying anything about what you just mentioned. and everything he said was correct. the reason you see huge programs like nebraska, florida state, and miami "down" for some time is because the competition is huge...both ON and OFF the field. and while teams are obviously making strides to keep up with the griz ON the field....they are still pretty much in a league of their own as far as tradition, facility, fan support, etc.

whether cat fans like it or not...people grow up wanting to be a griz for everything they have to offer. and if they ever get their locker rooms and other facilities on par with their stadium...they are once again the cream of the crop. this does not mean they'll be a lock to win countless national championships. but there is no way any sane person thinks that the griz are on a level playing field with the rest of the conference. msu is the closest as far as fan support, facilities etc. no one else is near. that is the difference.

[CatsRback]

not that i agree with your comparisons anyway...but BAC wasn't saying anything about what you just mentioned. and everything he said was correct. the reason you see huge programs like nebraska, florida state, and miami "down" for some time is because the competition is huge...both ON and OFF the field. and while teams are obviously making strides to keep up with the griz ON the field....they are still pretty much in a league of their own as far as tradition, facility, fan support, etc.

whether cat fans like it or not...people grow up wanting to be a griz for everything they have to offer. and if they ever get their locker rooms and other facilities on par with their stadium...they are once again the cream of the crop. this does not mean they'll be a lock to win countless national championships. but there is no way any sane person thinks that the griz are on a level playing field with the rest of the conference. msu is the closest as far as fan support, facilities etc. no one else is near. that is the difference.

In the 1980's the best facilities(and MONEY) in the country were in the middle of Dallas - a University called SMU...agree mostly with what you say Ilovethecats, but if the NCAA hits the dark pink hard, all bets are off...most good/great teams can survive one bad recruiting year, but two, or three..and the griz will be cooked for 5 to 10 years. I have to imagine that the NCAA/Justice/Education department investigations are hurting their recruiting this year. A bad year, followed by bad sanctions, followed by a poor recruiting year or two....might not happen but the griz could be on a long downward slope...

[ilovethecats]

not that i agree with your comparisons anyway...but BAC wasn't saying anything about what you just mentioned. and everything he said was correct. the reason you see huge programs like nebraska, florida state, and miami "down" for some time is because the competition is huge...both ON and OFF the field. and while teams are obviously making strides to keep up with the griz ON the field....they are still pretty much in a league of their own as far as tradition, facility, fan support, etc.

whether cat fans like it or not...people grow up wanting to be a griz for everything they have to offer. and if they ever get their locker rooms and other facilities on par with their stadium...they are once again the cream of the crop. this does not mean they'll be a lock to win countless national championships. but there is no way any sane person thinks that the griz are on a level playing field with the rest of the conference. msu is the closest as far as fan support, facilities etc. no one else is near. that is the difference.

In the 1980's the best facilities(and MONEY) in the country were in the middle of Dallas - a University called SMU...agree mostly with what you say Ilovethecats, but if the NCAA hits the dark pink hard, all bets are off...most good/great teams can survive one bad recruiting year, but two, or three..and the griz will be cooked for 5 to 10 years. I have to imagine that the NCAA/Justice/Education department investigations are hurting their recruiting this year. A bad year, followed by bad sanctions, followed by a poor recruiting year or two....might not happen but the griz could be on a long downward slope...

ya i think we're pretty much on the same page. and IF the griz get hit with some huge sanctions i agree all bets are off. i don't think that is happening however. and even if it did, i still don't think it would take them long to as long to recover as their fbc counterparts.

smu is a perfect example. except that they were given the death penalty which as the name suggests....is pretty bad. and smu has still not recovered from that. but most of that has to do with the fact that their competition (fbs) was right there with them. sure, smu might have had a lot of money at the time...but it's not like they were leaps and bounds in front of schools like miami, nebraska, florida state, etc. i think that was BAC's point.

the reason many of us don't think that um will fall off the map is because they don't have competition in many areas across the board in fcs. i agree if they have penalties it will effect their recruiting. but they are still the griz. they are still a marquee name in the fcs. and people will still want to play there. just like kids are still going to grow up and play for penn state in fron of 100,000 people. the difference is that penn state is competing with alabama, lsu, florida state, oregon etc. the griz are competing with.....app state? ndsu? he cats?

i just don't see them taking as long to recover as we see with big time fbs schools.

[[cat_bracket]]

not that i agree with your comparisons anyway...but BAC wasn't saying anything about what you just mentioned. and everything he said was correct. the reason you see huge programs like nebraska, florida state, and miami "down" for some time is because the competition is huge...both ON and OFF the field. and while teams are obviously making strides to keep up with the griz ON the field....they are still pretty much in a league of their own as far as tradition, facility, fan support, etc.

whether cat fans like it or not...people grow up wanting to be a griz for everything they have to offer. and if they ever get their locker rooms and other facilities on par with their stadium...they are once again the cream of the crop. this does not mean they'll be a lock to win countless national championships. but there is no way any sane person thinks that the griz are on a level playing field with the rest of the conference. msu is the closest as far as fan support, facilities etc. no one else is near. that is the difference.

In the 1980's the best facilities(and MONEY) in the country were in the middle of Dallas - a University called SMU...agree mostly with what you say Ilovethecats, but if the NCAA hits the dark pink hard, all bets are off...most good/great teams can survive one bad recruiting year, but two, or three..and the griz will be cooked for 5 to 10 years. I have to imagine that the NCAA/Justice/Education department investigations are hurting their recruiting this year. A bad year, followed by bad sanctions, followed by a poor recruiting year or two....might not happen but the griz could be on a long downward slope...

Not even close. SMU didn't have the best facilities or money, which is why they were paying players. Wow.

[bobcat99]

In college football, where there are such huge disparities between the "haves" and "have nots," no program in the "have" category is going to stay out of the race very long. With the facilities and tradition UM has, their program won't crumble -- they will just have bumps in the road now and then. Short of some huge NCAA penalties, I fully expect to see them back in contention for the BSC crown each year in the future.

At this point, until a lot of other programs come up with a lot of money to surpass them, UM simply drives too much revenue and has too many recruiting advantages (facilities, attendance, nice college town, etc.) to stay down long.

I'd say all of the same things about MSU now as well, fortunately.

I'm not so sure... aren't there several examples out there of programs that were absolutely dominant for several years and then basically slink back into mediocrity? Maybe Miami... or Nebraska is a good example? I remember in the 90's Nebraska was absolutely dominant, I think won 3 national titles in 4 years... lost like two or three games in four years or something stupid like that, and then didn't they hit a wall and hit several .500 season's or worse? Aren't they pretty mediocre today relative to the Big Boys?

NO, you're right. The same could be said about Notre Dame - at least until this year. Same with Texas. Florida State, as well. No team stays on top that long.

The major programs have a lot more competition, honestly. All of those programs are spending tons of money, so teams will rise and fall within that upper echelon.

However, in FCS, there truly isn't that kind of competition. Look at the attendance figures, look at the various facilities, and then look at the total revenues the various programs are putting out. Maybe 10% of the FCS programs in the country can really compete with UM in those off-field ways. Most of FCS is to FCS what Idaho is to the SEC. The disparity between haves and have-nots is far more intense in FCS that it seems to be in FBS (meaning the % of programs that simply aren't able to be competitive for Top 10 status on a consistent basis), probably because it's so hard for programs to get ANY kind of financial toe-hold in FCS. So based on that, it would take NCAA sanctions or a huge (continued) show of incompetence by everyone at UM to keep that program from being at very least a BSC contender. They simply have too many resources compared to everyone else to not have quite a bit of success by default.

Perfectly put Brad. Montana is the Notre Dame of FCS. Players want to go there and the top coaches want to coach there. This year could set them back but back for them is .500 or maybe better!

Seriously, the griz are the "Notre Dame of the FCS????" Let's look at the differences:
1. ND - grades count - if they don't think you can pass freshmen math, you don't get offered...check out back issues of SI - ND turned down multiple All Americans because of high academic standards.. UM ...? not so much on grades
2. ND - high honor code, very FEW off field incidents, no one really questions their comment to on and off field excellence...UM..not so much - it's all about winning football games.

UM would be best prepared to Miami - good school, but not great academically, win at all cost mentality....

Actually...Miami is a very good academic institute. Perhaps you didn't know this, but it is a private university...trust me, they value academics. As for Notre Dame and off field incidents, their coach was decently responsible for getting a kid killed and just look up the Prince Shembo situation. In the future it might not hurt for you to inform yourself on things before you spout off false information.

[AlphaGriz1]

It isnt a question of if the Griz are hit with sanctions....................

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[ilovethecats]

nope. just how big and how long.

that's what she said...

[DaCats21]

nope. just how big and how long.

that's what she said...

hahaha

[grizatwork]

The wild card here is the potential sanctions coming. For those thinking the griz will go away for any extended period of time, just ask yourself this question. Given the extensive upgrades in the stadium at Bozeman, the improved depth of your team, and the expectations of your fan base now, do you see MSU dropping back to it's previous depths? Yeah, me neither. I expected a down year this year. It is actually a little uglier than I thought it would be, but I don't expect a long term drop off.

[gtapp]

not that i agree with your comparisons anyway...but BAC wasn't saying anything about what you just mentioned. and everything he said was correct. the reason you see huge programs like nebraska, florida state, and miami "down" for some time is because the competition is huge...both ON and OFF the field. and while teams are obviously making strides to keep up with the griz ON the field....they are still pretty much in a league of their own as far as tradition, facility, fan support, etc.

whether cat fans like it or not...people grow up wanting to be a griz for everything they have to offer. and if they ever get their locker rooms and other facilities on par with their stadium...they are once again the cream of the crop. this does not mean they'll be a lock to win countless national championships. but there is no way any sane person thinks that the griz are on a level playing field with the rest of the conference. msu is the closest as far as fan support, facilities etc. no one else is near. that is the difference.

In the 1980's the best facilities(and MONEY) in the country were in the middle of Dallas - a University called SMU...agree mostly with what you say Ilovethecats, but if the NCAA hits the dark pink hard, all bets are off...most good/great teams can survive one bad recruiting year, but two, or three..and the griz will be cooked for 5 to 10 years. I have to imagine that the NCAA/Justice/Education department investigations are hurting their recruiting this year. A bad year, followed by bad sanctions, followed by a poor recruiting year or two....might not happen but the griz could be on a long downward slope...

We will have to see what (if any) the penalties are. Remember when ash took over we had a hard time recruiting because of the problems surrounding the football team under Kramer, we were down 4 or 5 scholarships due to grades, we were down on allowable pratice time, we had a new coach and since Ash has had a winning season every year and that was without the expansion. If we can do it under those conditions the griz can certainly do it. Unless they lose 10-20 scholarships per year (which they won't) they will stay at the top!

[gtapp]

In college football, where there are such huge disparities between the "haves" and "have nots," no program in the "have" category is going to stay out of the race very long. With the facilities and tradition UM has, their program won't crumble -- they will just have bumps in the road now and then. Short of some huge NCAA penalties, I fully expect to see them back in contention for the BSC crown each year in the future.

At this point, until a lot of other programs come up with a lot of money to surpass them, UM simply drives too much revenue and has too many recruiting advantages (facilities, attendance, nice college town, etc.) to stay down long.

I'd say all of the same things about MSU now as well, fortunately.

I'm not so sure... aren't there several examples out there of programs that were absolutely dominant for several years and then basically slink back into mediocrity? Maybe Miami... or Nebraska is a good example? I remember in the 90's Nebraska was absolutely dominant, I think won 3 national titles in 4 years... lost like two or three games in four years or something stupid like that, and then didn't they hit a wall and hit several .500 season's or worse? Aren't they pretty mediocre today relative to the Big Boys?

NO, you're right. The same could be said about Notre Dame - at least until this year. Same with Texas. Florida State, as well. No team stays on top that long.

The major programs have a lot more competition, honestly. All of those programs are spending tons of money, so teams will rise and fall within that upper echelon.

However, in FCS, there truly isn't that kind of competition. Look at the attendance figures, look at the various facilities, and then look at the total revenues the various programs are putting out. Maybe 10% of the FCS programs in the country can really compete with UM in those off-field ways. Most of FCS is to FCS what Idaho is to the SEC. The disparity between haves and have-nots is far more intense in FCS that it seems to be in FBS (meaning the % of programs that simply aren't able to be competitive for Top 10 status on a consistent basis), probably because it's so hard for programs to get ANY kind of financial toe-hold in FCS. So based on that, it would take NCAA sanctions or a huge (continued) show of incompetence by everyone at UM to keep that program from being at very least a BSC contender. They simply have too many resources compared to everyone else to not have quite a bit of success by default.

Perfectly put Brad. Montana is the Notre Dame of FCS. Players want to go there and the top coaches want to coach there. This year could set them back but back for them is .500 or maybe better!

Seriously, the griz are the "Notre Dame of the FCS????" Let's look at the differences:
1. ND - grades count - if they don't think you can pass freshmen math, you don't get offered...check out back issues of SI - ND turned down multiple All Americans because of high academic standards.. UM ...? not so much on grades
2. ND - high honor code, very FEW off field incidents, no one really questions their comment to on and off field excellence...UM..not so much - it's all about winning football games.

UM would be best prepared to Miami - good school, but not great academically, win at all cost mentality....

We are talking football on this post not academics and my comparison still holds. From a football perspective the griz are similar to ND. Until other programs close the gap as it has been described that will be the case.

[[cat_bracket]]

In college football, where there are such huge disparities between the "haves" and "have nots," no program in the "have" category is going to stay out of the race very long. With the facilities and tradition UM has, their program won't crumble -- they will just have bumps in the road now and then. Short of some huge NCAA penalties, I fully expect to see them back in contention for the BSC crown each year in the future.

At this point, until a lot of other programs come up with a lot of money to surpass them, UM simply drives too much revenue and has too many recruiting advantages (facilities, attendance, nice college town, etc.) to stay down long.

I'd say all of the same things about MSU now as well, fortunately.

I'm not so sure... aren't there several examples out there of programs that were absolutely dominant for several years and then basically slink back into mediocrity? Maybe Miami... or Nebraska is a good example? I remember in the 90's Nebraska was absolutely dominant, I think won 3 national titles in 4 years... lost like two or three games in four years or something stupid like that, and then didn't they hit a wall and hit several .500 season's or worse? Aren't they pretty mediocre today relative to the Big Boys?

NO, you're right. The same could be said about Notre Dame - at least until this year. Same with Texas. Florida State, as well. No team stays on top that long.

The major programs have a lot more competition, honestly. All of those programs are spending tons of money, so teams will rise and fall within that upper echelon.

However, in FCS, there truly isn't that kind of competition. Look at the attendance figures, look at the various facilities, and then look at the total revenues the various programs are putting out. Maybe 10% of the FCS programs in the country can really compete with UM in those off-field ways. Most of FCS is to FCS what Idaho is to the SEC. The disparity between haves and have-nots is far more intense in FCS that it seems to be in FBS (meaning the % of programs that simply aren't able to be competitive for Top 10 status on a consistent basis), probably because it's so hard for programs to get ANY kind of financial toe-hold in FCS. So based on that, it would take NCAA sanctions or a huge (continued) show of incompetence by everyone at UM to keep that program from being at very least a BSC contender. They simply have too many resources compared to everyone else to not have quite a bit of success by default.

Perfectly put Brad. Montana is the Notre Dame of FCS. Players want to go there and the top coaches want to coach there. This year could set them back but back for them is .500 or maybe better!

Seriously, the griz are the "Notre Dame of the FCS????" Let's look at the differences:
1. ND - grades count - if they don't think you can pass freshmen math, you don't get offered...check out back issues of SI - ND turned down multiple All Americans because of high academic standards.. UM ...? not so much on grades
2. ND - high honor code, very FEW off field incidents, no one really questions their comment to on and off field excellence...UM..not so much - it's all about winning football games.

UM would be best prepared to Miami - good school, but not great academically, win at all cost mentality....

We are talking football on this post not academics and my comparison still holds. From a football perspective the griz are similar to ND. Until other programs close the gap as it has been described that will be the case.

Oh c'mon silly man. The Griz are the Griz of the FCS. Notre Dame is the Notre Dame of the BCS.

[CPrice91]

If we can do it under those conditions the griz can certainly do it. Unless they lose 10-20 scholarships per year (which they won't) they will stay at the top!

Says who? It seems we're going to have to wait and see what specifically those sanctions are. The rumors are all over the map.

[gtapp]

If we can do it under those conditions the griz can certainly do it. Unless they lose 10-20 scholarships per year (which they won't) they will stay at the top!

Says who? It seems we're going to have to wait and see what specifically those sanctions are. The rumors are all over the map.

Your right! We have no idea what if any sanctions there will be. The rumors I have heard have been post season ban for 2+ years and some scholarships. I would expect if they lose scholarships it won't be more than 5. Look at USC. They had some serious infractions and they lost 10 scholarships out of 85 for 2 years plus a 2 or 3 year ban on bowl games. Would you expect the griz punichment (if any) to be worse? 10 out of 63 would be pretty severe so I am guessing around 5 if any.

[CatsRback]

If we can do it under those conditions the griz can certainly do it. Unless they lose 10-20 scholarships per year (which they won't) they will stay at the top!

Says who? It seems we're going to have to wait and see what specifically those sanctions are. The rumors are all over the map.

Your right! We have no idea what if any sanctions there will be. The rumors I have heard have been post season ban for 2+ years and some scholarships. I would expect if they lose scholarships it won't be more than 5. Look at USC. They had some serious infractions and they lost 10 scholarships out of 85 for 2 years plus a 2 or 3 year ban on bowl games. Would you expect the griz punichment (if any) to be worse? 10 out of 63 would be pretty severe so I am guessing around 5 if any.

nyone have any idea of when the NCAA investigation will be complete? I seldom get back to Montana but did this past week...your right, the RUMORS are rampant!