Ugly Americans - New Orleans

[SonomaCat]

I was just forwarded this article from 2004. I guess this goes further to the point of how the ball was dropped in terms of advance planning.

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/ ... index.html

[grizbeer]

the gov was begged by pres the sunday before to evacuate everybody and she had to sit on it

Do you happen to know of a link for this as well? I thought I read that the Gov told the mayor to evacuate -- Bush was making a speech in San Diego at the time and wasn't really involved at that point ... and then he had AF1 do a flyover (bad PR move) to assess the damage.

Here is a story from the USA today - Bush was definitely involved before the Hurricane hit, definitely asking people to evacuate per loacl officials reccomendations, and the Federal Gov't was preparing for the aftermath. Not sure I would go as far as Bush begging the Governor to order evacuation from these stories, though.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/stormce ... rina_x.htm

President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana on Saturday because of the approach of Hurricane Katrina and his spokesman urged residents along the coast to heed authorities' advice to evacuate. (Related story: Residents told to pack up, get out)

Bush, vacationing at his ranch, was being regularly updated about the storm, which is expected to hit land early Monday, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

Officials from the Federal Emergency Management Agency continue to coordinate with state authorities in Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama, and have prepositioned supplies in areas expected to be affected, he said. (Related story: Miss. on watch)

The president's emergency declaration authorizes the FEMA to coordinate all disaster relief efforts and to provide appropriate assistance in a number of Louisiana parishes, or counties.

Authorities told residents of low-lying coastal communities to head for higher ground. The storm was expected to strengthen as it crosses the Gulf of Mexico and could become a Category 4 hurricane with winds from 131-150 mph.

"We urge residents in the areas that could be impacted to follow the recommendations of local authorities," McClellan said.

[Hell's Bells]

the gov was begged by pres the sunday before to evacuate everybody and she had to sit on it

Do you happen to know of a link for this as well? I thought I read that the Gov told the mayor to evacuate -- Bush was making a speech in San Diego at the time and wasn't really involved at that point ... and then he had AF1 do a flyover (bad PR move) to assess the damage.

now that im out of class i will give you a link for that...prob be a few min

[Hell's Bells]

the gov was begged by pres the sunday before to evacuate everybody and she had to sit on it

Do you happen to know of a link for this as well? I thought I read that the Gov told the mayor to evacuate -- Bush was making a speech in San Diego at the time and wasn't really involved at that point ... and then he had AF1 do a flyover (bad PR move) to assess the damage.

now that im out of class i will give you a link for that...prob be a few min

hurricane maria - possibly only poses threat to shipping interests??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/stor ... 69,00.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005 ... 4033.shtml
After reviewing the crisis with Gov. Blanco, Bush summoned Nagin for a private chat - where, according to Nagin, Bush explained: "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor. I said . . . I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision."

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3kt.htm
Before residents had ever heard the words "Hurricane Katrina," the New Orleans TIMES-PICAYUNE ran a story warning residents: If you stay behind during a big storm, you'll be on your own!

Editors at TIMES-PICAYUNE on Monday called for every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency to be fired. In an open letter to President Bush, the paper said: "Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That's to the government's shame."

But the TIMES-PICAYUNE published a story on July 24, 2005 stating: City, state and federal emergency officials are preparing to give a historically blunt message: "In the event of a major hurricane, you're on your own."

Staff writer Bruce Nolan reported some 7 weeks before Katrina: "In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation."

"In the video, made by the anti-poverty agency Total Community Action, they urge those people to make arrangements now by finding their own ways to leave the city in the event of an evacuation.

"You're responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible for the person next to you," Wilkins said in an interview. "If you have some room to get that person out of town, the Red Cross will have a space for that person outside the area. We can help you."

[grizbeer]

Maybe she didn't literally mean that she was threatening the President. I guess that means that it is o.k. for other people to say that if Landrieu says one more negative thing about the President it is o.k. to literally punch her.

Thank you; I had missed that quote, and I truly had no idea what HB was talking about.

Read in context, though, it would be equally fair to say that I have "threatened homicide" against quite a few people in my life, but if it were baldly stated in those terms (and without any context), I would probably feel that my words had been unfairly represented. How about you?

when you threatened homicide did you tell them you meant it "literally". I guess I am missing the context issue - if the President makes on more speech or photo op in LA she is going to punch him, literally - where is the context problem?

[SonomaCat]

HB: I think we're mixing up a lot of different things altogether into one big confusing pot (which is probably perfectly appropriate for this whole messy situation). The story without a byline that relies exclusively on quotes from the mayor has Bush physically there, which means it happened well after any appropriate call to evacuate people from the city.

[Hell's Bells]

HB: I think we're mixing up a lot of different things altogether into one big confusing pot (which is probably perfectly appropriate for this whole messy situation). The story without a byline that relies exclusively on quotes from the mayor has Bush physically there, which means it happened well after any appropriate call to evacuate people from the city.

no we are not -
1) the president warned the govenor of LA as well as the city of NO that they should evacuate - the govenor needed 24 hours to make up her mind

2) bush did all that he could do - it was up to the mayor of NO and the gov of LA to do the evacuating, yet they didnt. One has to ask why?

and we havent heard anything on how mississippi is doing, could that be because they were better prepaired?

[Hell's Bells]

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ ... Hours&only

. O’BRIEN: Regarding what? Bringing troops in?

NAGIN: Whatever they had discussed. As far as what the — I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places.

S. O’BRIEN: And the governor said no.

NAGIN: She said that she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn’t happen, and more people died.
NAGIN: The president looked at me. I think he was a little surprised. He said, “No, you guys stay here. We’re going to another section of the plane, and we’re going to make a decision.”

He called me in that office after that. And he said, “Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor.” I said — and I don’t remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.

S. O’BRIEN: You’re telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision?



this was obtained from the cnn.com transcripts section

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... tm.01.html

[SonomaCat]

HB: I think we're mixing up a lot of different things altogether into one big confusing pot (which is probably perfectly appropriate for this whole messy situation). The story without a byline that relies exclusively on quotes from the mayor has Bush physically there, which means it happened well after any appropriate call to evacuate people from the city.

no we are not -
1) the president warned the govenor of LA as well as the city of NO that they should evacuate - the govenor needed 24 hours to make up her mind

2) bush did all that he could do - it was up to the mayor of NO and the gov of LA to do the evacuating, yet they didnt. One has to ask why?

and we havent heard anything on how mississippi is doing, could that be because they were better prepaired?

The article you posted talking about the interactions between Bush and the Governnor are relating to the rescue efforts -- long after the word went out to evacuate the city. Like I said, I think you are confusing a couple of the steps within the articles. Bush wasn't involved in the process (other than the standard "do as your local officials tell you" quips that grizbeer posted) until after the flood occurred.

Do you happen to have any links to articles that have a little more detail about the interactions between Bush, the mayor and the Gov? The article you posted was very hard to follow, and had no byline, so I'm hoping there is something out there that is a little more robust to explain what actually happened.

And the call did go out to evacuate, and all of the people of means did get out of the city. That was never really an issue. The problems arose for those people who didn't have the means to get out on their own (poor people).

[Grizlaw]

when you threatened homicide did you tell them you meant it "literally". I guess I am missing the context issue - if the President makes on more speech or photo op in LA she is going to punch him, literally - where is the context problem?

I can't say I honestly remember whether or not I added the word "literally" the last time I told somebody that if they did X, I was going to kill them. Frankly, though, I don't think it really matters if I did; anyone with half an ounce of common sense would have taken the quote for what it was (i.e. my way of expressing my displeasure with whatever they were doing, and not as an actual death threat).

I guess my point is that sometimes it's more productive to look at the meaning behind someone's words, instead of getting hung up on exactly how they choose to express it. Reading the Senator's quote, do you honestly think she intended it as an actual threat to the President? If not, then expressing so much outrage over her choice of words instead of focusing on the message she was trying to convey seems like a somewhat disingenuous way of deflecting attention away from the actual point she was trying to make.

Of course, I suppose if you're just a politico with an agenda, then it makes perfect sense to simply flap your arms and scream "oh my god, she THREATENED THE PRESIDENT!!", instead of actually addressing the point she's trying to make. If that's the case, then by all means, carry on. Just know that those of us who still think for ourselves are on to you.

[Hell's Bells]

BAC

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3kt.htm
Staff writer Bruce Nolan reported some 7 weeks before Katrina: "In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation."

[SonomaCat]

Okay, it makes sense now. Here's the whole clip of the mayor bitching about the Gov.:

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: There are people who say your evacuation plan, obviously in hindsight, was disastrous.

MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: Which one?

S. O'BRIEN: Your evacuation plan before -- when you put people into the Superdome. It wasn't thought out. You got 20,000 people in there. And that you bear the brunt of the blame for some of this, a large chunk of it.

NAGIN: Look, I'll take whatever responsibility that I have to take. But let me ask you this question: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city's history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens.

And I don't know what else I could do, other than to tell them that it's a mandatory evacuation. And if they stayed, make sure you have a frigging ax in your home, where you can bust out the roof just in case the water starts flowing.

And as a last resort, once this thing is above a category 3, there are no buildings in this city to withstand a category 3, a category 4 or a category 5 storm, other than the Superdome. That's where we sent people as a shelter of last resort. When that filled up, we sent them to the Convention Center. Now, you tell me what else we could have done.

S. O'BRIEN: What has Secretary Chertoff promised you? What has Donald Rumsfeld given you and promised you?

NAGIN: Look, I've gotten promises to -- I can't stand anymore promises. I don't want to hear anymore promises. I want to see stuff done. And that's why I'm so happy that the president came down here, because I think they were feeding him a line of bull also. And they were telling him things weren't as bad as it was.

He came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action.

And what the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate.

And then, the president and the governor sat down. We were in Air Force One. I said, 'Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two have to get in sync. If you don't get in sync, more people are going to die.'

S. O'BRIEN: What date was this? When did you say that? When did you say...

NAGIN: Whenever air Force One was here.

S. O'BRIEN: OK.

NAGIN: And this was after I called him on the telephone two days earlier. And I said, 'Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two need to get together on the same page, because of the lack of coordination, people are dying in my city.'

S. O'BRIEN: That's two days ago.

NAGIN: They both shook -- I don't know the exact date. They both shook their head and said yes. I said, 'Great.' I said, 'Everybody in this room is getting ready to leave.' There was senators and his cabinet people, you name it, they were there. Generals. I said, 'Everybody right now, we're leaving. These two people need to sit in a room together and make a doggone decision right now.'

S. O'BRIEN: And was that done?

NAGIN: The president looked at me. I think he was a little surprised. He said, "No, you guys stay here. We're going to another section of the plane, and we're going to make a decision."

He called me in that office after that. And he said, "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor." I said -- and I don't remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.

S. O'BRIEN: You're telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision?

NAGIN: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: Regarding what? Bringing troops in?

NAGIN: Whatever they had discussed. As far as what the -- I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places.

S. O'BRIEN: And the governor said no.

NAGIN: She said that she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn't happen, and more people died.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

So if we are going to take the mayor's story as fact, then the Gov. asked for 24 hours to make a decision on the National Guard troops for rescue operations. She clearly should have been asking for them ASAP. It would be interesting to hear what her office has to say about the facts of what happened and justifications for decisions that were made, and maybe they will when the inquiry is completed.

[SonomaCat]

BAC

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3kt.htm
Staff writer Bruce Nolan reported some 7 weeks before Katrina: "In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation."

So I guess that's proof that they understood their own limitations, and they proved to be true. I'm not sure what we can draw from that, however, other than the people who died should have known better than to be poor.

[Hell's Bells]

Okay, it makes sense now. Here's the whole clip of the mayor bitching about the Gov.:

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: There are people who say your evacuation plan, obviously in hindsight, was disastrous.

MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: Which one?

S. O'BRIEN: Your evacuation plan before -- when you put people into the Superdome. It wasn't thought out. You got 20,000 people in there. And that you bear the brunt of the blame for some of this, a large chunk of it.

NAGIN: Look, I'll take whatever responsibility that I have to take. But let me ask you this question: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city's history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens.

And I don't know what else I could do, other than to tell them that it's a mandatory evacuation. And if they stayed, make sure you have a frigging ax in your home, where you can bust out the roof just in case the water starts flowing.

And as a last resort, once this thing is above a category 3, there are no buildings in this city to withstand a category 3, a category 4 or a category 5 storm, other than the Superdome. That's where we sent people as a shelter of last resort. When that filled up, we sent them to the Convention Center. Now, you tell me what else we could have done.

S. O'BRIEN: What has Secretary Chertoff promised you? What has Donald Rumsfeld given you and promised you?

NAGIN: Look, I've gotten promises to -- I can't stand anymore promises. I don't want to hear anymore promises. I want to see stuff done. And that's why I'm so happy that the president came down here, because I think they were feeding him a line of bull also. And they were telling him things weren't as bad as it was.

He came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action.

And what the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate.

And then, the president and the governor sat down. We were in Air Force One. I said, 'Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two have to get in sync. If you don't get in sync, more people are going to die.'

S. O'BRIEN: What date was this? When did you say that? When did you say...

NAGIN: Whenever air Force One was here.

S. O'BRIEN: OK.

NAGIN: And this was after I called him on the telephone two days earlier. And I said, 'Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two need to get together on the same page, because of the lack of coordination, people are dying in my city.'

S. O'BRIEN: That's two days ago.

NAGIN: They both shook -- I don't know the exact date. They both shook their head and said yes. I said, 'Great.' I said, 'Everybody in this room is getting ready to leave.' There was senators and his cabinet people, you name it, they were there. Generals. I said, 'Everybody right now, we're leaving. These two people need to sit in a room together and make a doggone decision right now.'

S. O'BRIEN: And was that done?

NAGIN: The president looked at me. I think he was a little surprised. He said, "No, you guys stay here. We're going to another section of the plane, and we're going to make a decision."

He called me in that office after that. And he said, "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor." I said -- and I don't remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.

S. O'BRIEN: You're telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision?

NAGIN: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: Regarding what? Bringing troops in?

NAGIN: Whatever they had discussed. As far as what the -- I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places.

S. O'BRIEN: And the governor said no.

NAGIN: She said that she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn't happen, and more people died.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

So if we are going to take the mayor's story as fact, then the Gov. asked for 24 hours to make a decision on the National Guard troops for rescue operations. She clearly should have been asking for them ASAP. It would be interesting to hear what her office has to say about the facts of what happened and justifications for decisions that were made, and maybe they will when the inquiry is completed.

i just cant belive that she needed 24 hours to make that decision. Personally i would have needed only one second. Lets see she has impending disaster on her hands with a hurricane, she has national guard troops at her disposal what should she do. I know, lets wait 24 hours and blame bush!!!! i bet after that phone call she went back to her office and tried to find out why sombody from lake charles went to stephen f austin as a 1a transfer from mississippi state?

[SonomaCat]

I'm not really ready to take as fact anything in a lot of the he said/she said finger pointing that is going on right now. There seems to be a lot of blame going around, so I guess we'll figure out who screwed up the worst when the smoke clears.

[Hell's Bells]

I'm not really ready to take as fact anything in a lot of the he said/she said finger pointing that is going on right now. There seems to be a lot of blame going around, so I guess we'll figure out who screwed up the worst when the smoke clears.

She has yet to refute that statement, if she doesnt then we all know why

[SonomaCat]

I'm not really ready to take as fact anything in a lot of the he said/she said finger pointing that is going on right now. There seems to be a lot of blame going around, so I guess we'll figure out who screwed up the worst when the smoke clears.

She has yet to refute that statement, if she doesnt then we all know why

She claims to be taking the high road and placing getting something done about the problem over finger pointing and playing politics. If she's telling the truth, then she's quite noble in her refusal to comment. If she's silent to cover her own ass, then she might not do too well if she runs for office ever again.

[Hell's Bells]

I'm not really ready to take as fact anything in a lot of the he said/she said finger pointing that is going on right now. There seems to be a lot of blame going around, so I guess we'll figure out who screwed up the worst when the smoke clears.

She has yet to refute that statement, if she doesnt then we all know why

She claims to be taking the high road and placing getting something done about the problem over finger pointing and playing politics. If she's telling the truth, then she's quite noble in her refusal to comment. If she's silent to cover her own ass, then she might not do too well if she runs for office ever again.

somthing tells me that she must start to make other career plans

[SonomaCat]

I'm not really ready to take as fact anything in a lot of the he said/she said finger pointing that is going on right now. There seems to be a lot of blame going around, so I guess we'll figure out who screwed up the worst when the smoke clears.

She has yet to refute that statement, if she doesnt then we all know why

She claims to be taking the high road and placing getting something done about the problem over finger pointing and playing politics. If she's telling the truth, then she's quite noble in her refusal to comment. If she's silent to cover her own ass, then she might not do too well if she runs for office ever again.

somthing tells me that she must start to make other career plans

There are a lot of politicians who will probably be doing that after their terms are up with this disaster as at least part of the reason.

[Hell's Bells]

I'm not really ready to take as fact anything in a lot of the he said/she said finger pointing that is going on right now. There seems to be a lot of blame going around, so I guess we'll figure out who screwed up the worst when the smoke clears.

She has yet to refute that statement, if she doesnt then we all know why

She claims to be taking the high road and placing getting something done about the problem over finger pointing and playing politics. If she's telling the truth, then she's quite noble in her refusal to comment. If she's silent to cover her own ass, then she might not do too well if she runs for office ever again.

somthing tells me that she must start to make other career plans

There are a lot of politicians who will probably be doing that after their terms are up with this disaster as at least part of the reason.

possibly members of congress...no they wont be looking for new jobs they walk on water!