Why the Cats should pursue Mike Van Diest

bcats · Post by **bcats** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:25 pm

1BadBobcat wrote:
BozoneCat wrote:Sheesh, just because a coach wins at the NAIA level means he is the savior?! Give me a break. Van Diest is obviously a good coach, he would not have done what he has if he wasn't... that said, I can see very little correlation (if any) into how he would do at the I-AA level. Do you realize the difference between the two levels? Van Diest might do marginally better recruiting Montana (that is, if you are of the mindset that Kramer does not do a good job - personally, I disagree with that), but regardless of what many jizz fans like to think, you cannot build your program solely with Montana kids. There just aren't enough of them, and that is a fact. UM does a good job getting solid Montana kids, but most of them are just roster-fillers who make their fans happy because they can look down the roster and see how many MT kids there are (hint: MSU only has a few less Montana kids than does UM). The jizz marketing machine has done a great job indoctrinating the uneducated about how they are "Montana's team, built with Montana kids," but it simply isn't true. Most of their studs come from out of state, just like ours. They also get some studs from in-state, just like we do.

OK, before I really go off into a tangent, I'll get back to my point: Van Diest currently recruits about 90% Montana, and the other 10% is spread out to neighboring states. He would have to change that philosophy completely, and I don't know that he would have the coaching contacts to do that. Not saying he couldn't, but it is far from a sure thing. Managing the resources at a I-AA school is night-and-day different for a head coach, also. Again, he could possibly do it very well, but he certainly does not have the experience that would show he can for sure.

Just to reiterate: Van Diest is an excellent coach at Carroll College... which means absolutely nothing when considering how he would do by making the jump up several levels in play. Carroll also is fortunate to have many of the same advantages at the NAIA level that UM does at the I-AA level, which means he is going to get great athletes without even having to try very hard (not saying he doesn't work his butt off). Let's get off Kramer's back, at least for the rest of the season, and get back to this discussion if and when it becomes relevent.
Not trying to slam you, but please be informed before you try to post facts. 47 of the approximately 110 kids on the Carroll roster (including practice squads and redshirts) are from out-of-state. That equates to approximately 40%. And those kids come from alot more places than just neighboring states. Kids listed on the current roster are from Wyoming, Kansas, Idaho, Michigan, Oregon, California, Nevada, Washington, Alaska, and Arizona. My point is that Van Diest knows how to recruit. Granted, some of those kids came to Carroll because of their reputation, but you gotta build one first! I'm not petitioning for or against Van Diest, but he' a great recruiter and would be a qualified candidate if our coaching sitution changed at MSU.

Thank you. Van Diest is very qualified!

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:27 pm

Good arguments, guys. I really don't know, and I certainly don't have the time right now to look up Carroll's roster and count how many kids they have from other states. It just always seemed to me, at a passing glance anyways, that Carroll was filled with mostly MT kids. Good for Van Diest for spreading it out.

While I already knew that VD had experience coaching at other colleges, I would throw out there that he was not the head coach at those schools. As we all know, there is a BIG difference between being the head man versus an assistant.

I don't want to come off wrong in that I don't think Van Diest would be an excellent candidate if and when the MSU coaching position opens up. Personally, I think it is a stretch to just assume he would turn MSU into what he has built at Carroll. I'm really just playing devil's advocate, and looking for good explanations as to why others seem so ready to hand him the job.

old wise one · Post by **old wise one** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:34 pm

What's funny to me, is everyone backing Kramer on this board, was also the majority who was so adamant about getting rid of Durham last winter. Afterall, why wouldn't we have gotten rid of Durham and keep Kramer? Mick had an overall better winning percentage, was a life long Bobcat, ran a pretty clean program.

duelalumnicat · Post by **duelalumnicat** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:38 pm

Didn't Earle Solmonson win at least one National championship at NDSU?

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:38 pm

I've been to a few Carroll games (playoffs and a regular season one) as well as seen them on tv a time or two and what stands out to me is they are a disciplined and well prepared team. If there is something MSU is lacking in the Kramer regime that is exactly it.

I am not meaning discipline off the field, but rather discipline on it. Players sticking with their assignments, no stupid false start penalties or blocks in the back, personal fouls, etc. Well prepared meaning they dont burn timeouts getting the correct personnel on the field or scramble on the field trying to get into position, or let the play clock run out. They know their opponent and are prepared for them, Carroll would have known who Danny Woodhead is and how Chadron runs an offense.

Carroll does not "fall of the bike" as Kramer puts it so eloquantly. If people want to see a well coached team, head down to Helena this weekend and catch Carroll-Tech.

bcats · Post by **bcats** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:41 pm

old wise one wrote:What's funny to me, is everyone backing Kramer on this board, was also the majority who was so adamant about getting rid of Durham last winter. Afterall, why wouldn't we have gotten rid of Durham and keep Kramer? Mick had an overall better winning percentage, was a life long Bobcat, ran a pretty clean program.

Exactly. Everyone wants to put Kramer on some untouchable pedestal because he beat the Griz. That is great but there are a lot of other games to take into consideration. Winning records would be nice. Playoff games would be nice. Come on, we are better than what he has shown.

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:46 pm

bcats wrote:
old wise one wrote:What's funny to me, is everyone backing Kramer on this board, was also the majority who was so adamant about getting rid of Durham last winter. Afterall, why wouldn't we have gotten rid of Durham and keep Kramer? Mick had an overall better winning percentage, was a life long Bobcat, ran a pretty clean program.
Exactly. Everyone wants to put Kramer on some untouchable pedestal because he beat the Griz. That is great but there are a lot of other games to take into consideration. Winning records would be nice. Playoff games would be nice. Come on, we are better than what he has shown.

I appreciate everything Mike has done for the program, bringing some respectability to it, lots of excitement, a fan base again... but is he the one to get us to the next level. This years program motto is "the next step"... I dont know if Kramer can do that or not. If he cant win any more than 7 games with that defense he had in '01-'04 or with Lulay from '01-05 then what is it going to take to get over that hump?

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:46 pm

old wise one wrote:What's funny to me, is everyone backing Kramer on this board, was also the majority who was so adamant about getting rid of Durham last winter. Afterall, why wouldn't we have gotten rid of Durham and keep Kramer? Mick had an overall better winning percentage, was a life long Bobcat, ran a pretty clean program.

If the status quo continues through the end of this season, I imagine you will see those two populations becoming more and more uniform. The football team just hasn't hit the tipping point for everybody at this point.

If the trendline is up and to the right, and most everybody is happy, but when it is down and to the right ... things get ugly.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:54 pm

old wise one wrote:What's funny to me, is everyone backing Kramer on this board, was also the majority who was so adamant about getting rid of Durham last winter. Afterall, why wouldn't we have gotten rid of Durham and keep Kramer? Mick had an overall better winning percentage, was a life long Bobcat, ran a pretty clean program.

Well, I believe Mick had about a .500 winning percentage against D-I competition - certainly nothing to brag about. He won one - count it, one - Big Sky title in his 16 years. Kramer already has that beat, and badly. I don't think Mick ran a lily-white program either - there have been plenty of basketball players getting into trouble with the law too, especially over the last few years. We also saw attendence and general enthusiasm for the basketball team pretty much evaporating into thin air, while Mike Kramer has revived and generated more enthusiasm for MSU football than I can ever remember - and his attendence numbers speak loud and clear to that effect.

I'm not saying right now that I necessarily think Kramer should be kept around after this season, especially if it continues to plummet down the tubes. I have a lot of issues with the way things are being done under his leadership, and I certainly am not happy with the product he is putting out on the field. So, don't get me wrong, I'm not a blanket Kramer apologist. That said, I think it is counter-productive to be having this discussion right now, as if any coaching changes are going to be made in the middle of the season. This losing streak is just as hard on me as it is on everyone else, and ultimately all of us are just grasping at straws trying to figure out what is going to get MSU over the proverbial hump because we love our Bobcats and want to see them succeed. I guess I just don't feel that talking about our next coach is going to serve any good purpose at this point in the season. I still hold out hope that Kramer will get this team turned around, playing to their full potential, and we'll look back on this and laugh. I don't really think that will be the case, but I am a Bobcat fan and I will never give up my hope or my love of this program.

ursusmissoulus · Post by **ursusmissoulus** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:56 pm

Why would Van Diest move sideways?? He'll wait til Hauck moves to 1A.

STREETCAT · Post by **STREETCAT** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:01 pm

Van Diest will do whats best for his situation.

Van Diest does not care what bobby H., Mike K., the cats or the griz
If he thinks he could step up another level and keep winning, i would think that he would.

Like any coach he will do what is best for is pocket book. Here comes the next Joe Glenn!!!

Time will tell but i doubt we have seen the last of Mike Kramer!

Cledus · Post by **Cledus** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Sorry to move backwards in the thread but during the day it's not easy for me to make posts. Anyways, I read with interest regarding Kramer's identity

As far as Kramer's identity, from listening to all his interviews and from the Monday lunches in Billings over the years, it is my opinion that Kramer wants to be known as a smashmouth-type coach whose teams show up on Saturdays for a slugfest.

I think Kramer's identity has a lot less to do with a running game, a passing game, or a defensive scheme as much as it has to do with an attitude. I think that's why we never see any fakes or trick plays -- that would be too close to "sissyball."

He always seems to be proud of his teams' defensive statistics, which for many years have been the best, or among the best.

bcats · Post by **bcats** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:19 pm

STREETCAT wrote:Van Diest will do whats best for his situation.

Van Diest does not care what bobby H., Mike K., the cats or the griz
If he thinks he could step up another level and keep winning, i would think that he would.

Like any coach he will do what is best for is pocket book. Here comes the next Joe Glenn!!!

Time will tell but i doubt we have seen the last of Mike Kramer!

I have a feeling that MSU will probably keep Kramer even if he doesn't win another game all year. That is the problem. The Cats will lose their chance at Van Diest, Hauck will move on and the Griz will welcome there new head coach from Carroll, win championships and mock the Cats once again.

bcats · Post by **bcats** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:25 pm

Cledus wrote:Sorry to move backwards in the thread but during the day it's not easy for me to make posts. Anyways, I read with interest regarding Kramer's identity

As far as Kramer's identity, from listening to all his interviews and from the Monday lunches in Billings over the years, it is my opinion that Kramer wants to be known as a smashmouth-type coach whose teams show up on Saturdays for a slugfest.

I think Kramer's identity has a lot less to do with a running game, a passing game, or a defensive scheme as much as it has to do with an attitude. I think that's why we never see any fakes or trick plays -- that would be too close to "sissyball."

He always seems to be proud of his teams' defensive statistics, which for many years have been the best, or among the best.

Attitude only goes so far. My understanding of smashmouth football is a solid defense especially against the run. How many yards did that running back from Chadron have? It also sounds like a team that likes to pound the ball down your throat and play mistake free football. Have we ever had a big time running game during Kramer's tenure? I won't even comment on mistake free football.

Shakermaker · Post by **Shakermaker** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:21 pm

bcats wrote:I would like to throw out a possible coaching canidate to replace Kramer at the end of the season. Mike Van Diest (Carroll College Saints) has won 4 straight NAIA National Championships. He recruits well and gets the most out of his players. His credentials speak for themself. He has previously coached in the Big Sky (that other school in Montana) winning the Big Sky title in 1982. In his 7 year-tenure his record is 78-16.

Kramer is on the hot seat wether you support him or not. I am ready for someone to take this program to the next level. If you think Van Diest isn't right for the job give me some reasons. All I can see is nothing but good. I don't know what his contract looks like but I have to believe that he would be interested if the numbers were right. Bozeman is less than 2 hours away from Helena and D-1AA is bigger than NAIA. I am lighting the flame lets start the fire.

Yeah, because Van Diest is on the table right... just a call away.

bcats · Post by **bcats** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:40 pm

Shakermaker wrote:
bcats wrote:I would like to throw out a possible coaching canidate to replace Kramer at the end of the season. Mike Van Diest (Carroll College Saints) has won 4 straight NAIA National Championships. He recruits well and gets the most out of his players. His credentials speak for themself. He has previously coached in the Big Sky (that other school in Montana) winning the Big Sky title in 1982. In his 7 year-tenure his record is 78-16.

Kramer is on the hot seat wether you support him or not. I am ready for someone to take this program to the next level. If you think Van Diest isn't right for the job give me some reasons. All I can see is nothing but good. I don't know what his contract looks like but I have to believe that he would be interested if the numbers were right. Bozeman is less than 2 hours away from Helena and D-1AA is bigger than NAIA. I am lighting the flame lets start the fire.
Yeah, because Van Diest is on the table right... just a call away.

Nobody knows if he would be interested. Being a dedicated Bobcat fan like myself I would think this is the greatest job in the state. I don't know how he feels I am just raising the question what if? If he doesn't answer the call then the AD should go to his house and beat on his door until he does.

But who am I kidding the Cats will run the table and take the Big Sky by storm. In December after we have demolished the Griz and hosted our first playoff game in forever I will wish I never brought up Van Diest and his 4 National Championships.

I am not going to say that I have changed my mind on Kramer but I do truly hope he can turn this thing around. He beat Colorado and that shouldn't be taken lightly(the buffs should have beat #9 Georgia). Van Diest is a great coach and should be considered if this shipwreck isn't corrected. If there are other canidates, and I am sure there are, I would like to hear some feedback. We should always keep our options open and prepare for what might come. The blitz is coming so lets check down to the hot route.

Platinumcat · Post by **Platinumcat** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:59 pm

bcats wrote:
Shakermaker wrote:
bcats wrote:I would like to throw out a possible coaching canidate to replace Kramer at the end of the season. Mike Van Diest (Carroll College Saints) has won 4 straight NAIA National Championships. He recruits well and gets the most out of his players. His credentials speak for themself. He has previously coached in the Big Sky (that other school in Montana) winning the Big Sky title in 1982. In his 7 year-tenure his record is 78-16.

Kramer is on the hot seat wether you support him or not. I am ready for someone to take this program to the next level. If you think Van Diest isn't right for the job give me some reasons. All I can see is nothing but good. I don't know what his contract looks like but I have to believe that he would be interested if the numbers were right. Bozeman is less than 2 hours away from Helena and D-1AA is bigger than NAIA. I am lighting the flame lets start the fire.
Yeah, because Van Diest is on the table right... just a call away.
Nobody knows if he would be interested. Being a dedicated Bobcat fan like myself I would think this is the greatest job in the state. I don't know how he feels I am just raising the question what if? If he doesn't answer the call then the AD should go to his house and beat on his door until he does.

But who am I kidding the Cats will run the table and take the Big Sky by storm. In December after we have demolished the Griz and hosted our first playoff game in forever I will wish I never brought up Van Diest and his 4 National Championships.

I am not going to say that I have changed my mind on Kramer but I do truly hope he can turn this thing around. He beat Colorado and that shouldn't be taken lightly(the buffs should have beat #9 Georgia). Van Diest is a great coach and should be considered if this shipwreck isn't corrected. If there are other canidates, and I am sure there are, I would like to hear some feedback. We should always keep our options open and prepare for what might come. The blitz is coming so lets check down to the hot route.

Aaah, but bcats, you're acting like Carpenter. You're not allowing the play to develop long enough and you're just looking short.

bcats · Post by **bcats** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:07 pm

Maybe later in the year I can check to max protection and go deep on this but right now I am just feeling out the defense and making some of my first posts. I love the Cats and only want to see them succeed.

twentythreeOh4 · Post by **twentythreeOh4** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:02 pm

duelalumnicat wrote:Didn't Earle Solmonson win at least one National championship at NDSU?

Earle won back-to-back D-II National Championships at NDSU.

nevadacat · Post by **nevadacat** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:47 pm

twentythreeOh4 wrote:
duelalumnicat wrote:Didn't Earle Solmonson win at least one National championship at NDSU?
Earle won back-to-back D-II National Championships at NDSU.

Preface: This is not a commentary on Coach Van Diest's ability. I don't know enough about him to intelligently assess his qualifications.

That said, look at the irony in this topic.

This thread is all about getting an NAIA coach, who has won four NCs, to come to Bozeman and "resurrect" a lagging program. (Not necessarily my sentiments--I'm waiting until November 19 to state my opinion--but I think it adequately describes the thoughts of the current let-Kramer-go camp.) Yet, Earle Solomonson won two titles at D-II, a level at least two steps above NAIA, and averaged only 3 wins per season at MSU.

Just something to think about ...

Why the Cats should pursue Mike Van Diest

Re: Why the Cats should pursue Mike Van Diest

Re: Why the Cats should pursue Mike Van Diest

Re: Why the Cats should pursue Mike Van Diest