Split thread - Improvements... Griz fan perspective

velochat · Post by **velochat** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:42 pm

I think people overestimate Denny Washington's contribution to their stadium. He was given credit for building the original stadium, but actually, he got the contract and much of his contribution was "in kind services". His actually contribution to the stadium as it exists is fairly modest from the figures I've seen (based on his wealth).

I wouldn't be surprised if Martel's contribution to our stadium equalled or exceeded Washington's, and Martel is not nearly as big a contractor (though still quite impressive).

catatac · Post by **catatac** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:15 pm

I disagree with one statement made by 1AAFAN - If the Grizzlies strung together a few losing seasons, then capped it off by going 0-11 - There would NOT be 15,000 people in that stadium the following year. Be lucky to hit 10,000. Remember, very few UM students go to the games now.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:44 pm

That (0-11) is not likely to happen and even if they do have a string of off years they would only be of the 5-6, 6-5 variety and that base would still be there. I do see your point.

After building W-G, UM only went to the playoffs twice in seven years and were in a state similar to what MSU has seen over the past four years. The fan base increased all the while, then when Dave Dickenson came to town it went wild. But as I recall it was always very strong -- had that base -- during those first years and just continued to snow ball.

Apparently Read is considering a 6,000 seat addition prior to the 2006 season.

catatac · Post by **catatac** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:04 pm

iaafan wrote:That (0-11) is not likely to happen and even if they do have a string of off years they would only be of the 5-6, 6-5 variety and that base would still be there. I do see your point.

After building W-G, UM only went to the playoffs twice in seven years and were in a state similar to what MSU has seen over the past four years. The fan base increased all the while, then when Dave Dickenson came to town it went wild. But as I recall it was always very strong -- had that base -- during those first years and just continued to snow ball.

Apparently Read is considering a 6,000 seat addition prior to the 2006 season.

Yes - of course the 0-11 scenario is extremely unlikely if not impossible at this point - but that is what we had to deal with and this year still set the all-time attendance record. And yes, I've heard of the expansion to occur after next year. My gut instinct tells me they're going 1A if they get an offer from either the WAC or the MWC.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:10 pm

catatac wrote:
iaafan wrote:That (0-11) is not likely to happen and even if they do have a string of off years they would only be of the 5-6, 6-5 variety and that base would still be there. I do see your point.

After building W-G, UM only went to the playoffs twice in seven years and were in a state similar to what MSU has seen over the past four years. The fan base increased all the while, then when Dave Dickenson came to town it went wild. But as I recall it was always very strong -- had that base -- during those first years and just continued to snow ball.

Apparently Read is considering a 6,000 seat addition prior to the 2006 season.
Yes - of course the 0-11 scenario is extremely unlikely if not impossible at this point - but that is what we had to deal with and this year still set the all-time attendance record. And yes, I've heard of the expansion to occur after next year. My gut instinct tells me they're going 1A if they get an offer from either the WAC or the MWC.

All signs seem to be pointing to them going 1-A at least from the outside. I have followed the MWC quite a bit since moving to Wyoming and I don't see that happening anytime soon for the griz. Something of the WAC variety seems a better fit. I have read some reports that Read is really against going 1-A so maybe nothing will happen. At least if they did go 1-A they would have to stop playing 2 Div. II schools a year with a minimum of 7 home games. I doubt 9-2 seasons would be a lock season after season.

catatac · Post by **catatac** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:15 pm

WYCAT wrote:
catatac wrote:
iaafan wrote:That (0-11) is not likely to happen and even if they do have a string of off years they would only be of the 5-6, 6-5 variety and that base would still be there. I do see your point.

After building W-G, UM only went to the playoffs twice in seven years and were in a state similar to what MSU has seen over the past four years. The fan base increased all the while, then when Dave Dickenson came to town it went wild. But as I recall it was always very strong -- had that base -- during those first years and just continued to snow ball.

Apparently Read is considering a 6,000 seat addition prior to the 2006 season.
Yes - of course the 0-11 scenario is extremely unlikely if not impossible at this point - but that is what we had to deal with and this year still set the all-time attendance record. And yes, I've heard of the expansion to occur after next year. My gut instinct tells me they're going 1A if they get an offer from either the WAC or the MWC.
All signs seem to be pointing to them going 1-A at least from the outside. I have followed the MWC quite a bit since moving to Wyoming and I don't see that happening anytime soon for the griz. Something of the WAC variety seems a better fit. I have read some reports that Read is really against going 1-A so maybe nothing will happen. At least if they did go 1-A they would have to stop playing 2 Div. II schools a year with a minimum of 7 home games. I doubt 9-2 seasons would be a lock season after season.

No Doubt. My prediction would be that after 2-3 years they would be somewhere between what Idaho did and whot Boise State did. Closer to Boise State. Most realistic Griz fans realize that doing what Boise State has been able to do is highly unlikely. The Boise State's and Marshall's are the exceptions... I still hear that statement thrown around saying that they can't move up without MSU, and vice-versa? That is a load of B.S. correct?

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:31 pm

One thing that should be noted is if the Grizzlies move up, they will be on the same playing field as everyone else. No advantage over $$$ and hosting home playoff games for one thing.. Every team will have a nice stadium and the competition for recruits will be even more intense. I bet they do it soon though, just a hunch.

theblackgecko · Post by **theblackgecko** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:50 pm

catatac wrote:My gut instinct tells me they're going 1A if they get an offer from either the WAC or the MWC.

Worst kept secret in Grizzly nation is that the WAC has an open invitation for the Griz. The WAC took Idaho, USU, and NM State, all of which have a lot of work to go before catching up with Montana. MWC bid would be unlikely, but WAC happens when Montana wants it.
It would probably help out the Bobcat program quite a bit if Montana were to make the move. That way, the two schools would be recruiting different classes of athletes, and Hauck could send the transfers down to Bozeman.

CARDIAC_CATS wrote:Every team will have a nice stadium and the competition for recruits will be even more intense.

The Griz wouldn't dominate in the WAC, but Wash Griz is nicer than the Kibbie Dome, along with some of the other WAC stadiums. Competetion for recruits would be less of an issue, since Montana gets a fair amount of Montana talent anyway, and a move might keep a few more of them in state.. As far as importing the kids from Cali, Fresno State and the WAC have a much higher profile than Sad State and the Sky.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:51 pm

Fans, facilities and fun (winning team). The one easiest to control is fans from where we're sitting. But the other two are necessary, too. Everyone needs to do their part.

Yeah, my hunch is that UM is going I-A and they probably should. It's too bad for the state of Montana and the Cat-Griz game, but they really don't fit in I-AA anymore. I don't think it's so much that they are too good skills-wise (they are very good), but more so on the facilities and fans end of it. It's a culture shock for teams to go there and play. Teams may win there, but no one ever goes in and dominates them.

Their homefield advantage may be the biggest in all of sports when you consider their opponents. Most opposing teams come from arenas that get about 5,000 to 10,000 fans per week, depending on where they play, and they don't play in acoustically engineered stadiums, so the crowds at W-G must make the best of them feel like Troy State playing at Michigan. No sub I-A team of 18-22 year olds is ready for W-G.

New Hampshire played at Montana after getting 5,000 at home per week and playing at stadiums with anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 per week, then they go to 23,000, but those 23,000 sound about like the MetroDome did when the Twins were in the World Series. Deafening after being able to hear the concession vendors from the huddle.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:56 pm

I have no doubt that UM would do well in the WAC. Probably start out at 5-6/6-5, but move up rather rapidly and will be in that top 4 with BSU, UTEP, Fresno State and Hawai'i in a matter of just a few years.

I'm sure they'd keep MSU on the schedule, but would tick off their own fans if they didn't.

grizbeer · Post by **grizbeer** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:37 pm

One thing I like that the Griz do is the Griz country on Griz Vision, showing cities across Montana. I think it shows fans across the state that they are appreciated and a necessary part of the program. I'm not sure if MSU does something similar, but it would seem pretty easy to put something together by season ticket holder address.

It doesn't have to be the same thing - maybe have flags made up from each county with their state seal. Maybe a promotion for season ticket holders where they receive a flag that goes in the car window with Bobcat country and their county seal or something. It might cost a few $ per season ticket holder, but build loyalty.

The Seahawks used to do something similar with banners for their regional booster clubs, and I always thought it was cool.

BWahlberg · Post by **BWahlberg** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:59 pm

As a Griz fan I currently do not want us to move up to 1A for a bunch of reasons.

The big one being our Rivalary with the cats. It's unfortunate but A LOT of Griz fans in these past few years are newer bandwagon fans that do not appreciate this rivalry. Although I'm only 25 I have grown up my whole life with this, I have numerous Griz/Cat memories from basketball and football, its a great tradition.

If we went 1A we would probably never travel to MSU, we would always have the game in UM as long as MSU was 1AA. Idaho did not renew our series with them for that reason, amongst others, they didn't want to play up here in a 1AA stadium. If we were to continue our rivalry it would be an early september game, or august game. I also don't like that either, I like playing you guys last, it's led to some great games from both sides of the fence.

We go from being one of the current "top dogs" to just another team. To a top 1AA prospect or a 1A transfer we look much more attractive now rather then competeing with WSU, UW, BSU, WY, CU, CSU, Utah, etc.

Granted our bandwagon fans would fall off since we'd probably put up a few seasons that'd be 3-8 or 5-6 or something like that at 1st. I'd rather stay where we are for now. Do you see any team finishing 9-2 in 1A this year playing for the national championship?

If we joined the WAC how long would it take us to compete with Utah, BSU, Hawai'i and Fresno anyways? It would take prob. 4 - 6 years, maybe I'm just spoiled growing up with a successful team, but I like our current success and wish we wouldn't mess with it. But, for most fans its one of those "who moved my cheese" type of things...

I was wondering if the Griz went 1A would cat fans cheer for their success in the WAC or where ever? I brought this up on egriz a while back and it seemed like most Griz fans would support MSU, saying they'd be able to rally behind two Montana schools through out the year.

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:09 pm

If the friz go 1-A why would we even want to play them? So we can get beat by a 1-A team year after year for a fraction of the money we can get from a Big 12 team? When ISU plays Boise State does any of their fans see it as a good thing? Do they have a chance of springing an upset? Does Boise ever play in Pocatello?

I say let them go 1-A and leave us alone to be the dominant team in the Big Sky and develop new rivalries with Eastern Washington. Then when they are fighting Boise, Fresno and UTEP for the Humanitarian Bowl bid year after year (not played in W-G) See if their fan base expands or contracts. I'd actually like to see them go!

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:51 pm

I will make a bet right now with any takers for ANY amount of $$ that the Griz do NOT move up to 1A.

I really wish they would, because when they started posting those mediocre 7-4, 6-5, 5-6 records in a pathetic conference and occasionally qualifying for the WhoCares.com Bowl, the folks from Helena & Butte & Great Falls & Kalispell who end up filling a sizable portion of WAGriz every week will decide there's better, funner ways to spend their time & money, then WAGriz will have about 10,000 fans in a 31,000+ seat arena.

Not to mention, how many Montana kids would prefer to go play at a school where the best they can hope for is a meaningless bowl game in a backwater town they've never heard of when they can still go to a school that has a shot at playing in a LEGITIMATE playoff and potentially be able to someday call themselves a NATIONAL CHAMPION.

Try this: When the Griz win this Friday (which they will do by AT LEAST 28 points; JMU, are you kidding me? That game between them & W&M last Friday night looked more like a High School game than a second-tier collegiate semifinal! The Griz will win this one easier than ANY of their first 3 playoff games; it'll be a laugher or a stinker, depending on your perspective), ask Craig Ochs or Jeff. Heidleberger or LV or ANY of the Griz players if they'd trade their NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP rings for a Humanitarian Bowl ring or a Monster.com Bowl ring.

The Griz will NOT move up to 1A unless there is a SIGNIFICANT shakeup in 1A and how they operate & decide THEIR National Champion. As long as the current system stays the way it is, there is NO WAY the Griz move up. If they did, they wouldn't fall to the depths of Idaho, but they'd also NEVER reach the heights of Boise State. At best, they'd achieve results similar to Nevada-Reno... (WHO? Oh, yeah, precisely my point...)

In closing, the first ingredient to a quality game-day experience is a home team that is EXPECTED to win the game at hand & generally does so. IMO, the Bobcats are on the verge. Trust me, the Griz didn't start winning because more people started going to games when they sucked! They showed improvement (albeit modest at first) and THEN the folks started to come. I always like to close this topic with my Griz BBall analogy; when Monte was in charge, they packed the house! Now, the MSU Volleyball team routinely outdraws the Griz Men's BBall team. Pray that you don't have a few mediocre seasons, Griz fans, for whether you want to accept it or not, that's all it would take to burst your bubble!

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:57 pm

Yea..that's what I meant to say!

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:35 am

Their fan base won't retract when they go to I-A. They will eliminate those unknown teams on their rosters and schedule the likes of conf. foes BSU, UTEP, Hawaii, Fresno St. every other year. Idaho (they have a big rivalry with Idaho) would be a staple game. They'd be scheduling Wazzu occasionally. UW, Oreg. St., Oreg. from time to time. You think people won't trade the playoffs against New Hamp., McNeese, Sam Houston for that? And they will be giving them all a run for their money. I wouldn't be so sure they won't attain the heights of BSU and Marshall. Considering their facility and the direction it's going they have a good chance to do that.
It may not happen this year or next, but it's coming. The big thing that is keeping them in I-AA are the home playoff games. But with an expanded venue to 30,000 and sell out crowds due to bringing teams that people know of, they will go I-A.

farmcats · Post by **farmcats** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:18 am

With all the talk of the Griz moving to D-1 there is one thing that hasn’t been mention ( I believe this is the case) and that is getting the approval of the Board of Regents. I doubt the Regents would approve should a move for a number of reasons. One being the way funding of the State University System is done. If UM moves to D-1 it would be a determinate to the other units as far as funding from the state. I really have my doubts if they would allow this to happen. There would be a great chance of it happening if both MSU and UM both wanted to go D-1

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:46 am

iaafan wrote:...But with an expanded venue to 30,000 and sell out crowds due to bringing teams that people know of, they will go I-A.

Even when those teams people know of are routinely beating the Griz?

iaa, I really hope the Griz DO move up soon. It would make suffering through the "Streak" seem meaningless when we get to enjoy watching UM go from a "national championship-caliber" program to just another unknown, second-rate D1 team like Idaho or Wyoming.

PLEASE GO, GRIZ, AND GO SOON! I NEED SOME MORE COMEDY IN MY LIFE!

jagur1 · Post by **jagur1** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:58 am

E don't you get enough watching cat sports?

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:20 am

I don't think they will be beaten routinely. There's a risk of that, but there's also a risk of having what they are doing in I-AA becoming passe. I don't think they can draw much beyond 30,000, but you never know. I definitely don't think they would ever end up like Idaho, who never had a great following to begin with. That's a whole other issue.
I see them being similar to how they were when the Big Sky had BSU, Idaho and Nevada, which was in the running every year. They won't have a seven-year streak of winning the WAC, but they'll win their share and winning the WAC will be akin to winning a I-AA title.