France v. Saudi Arabia

[SonomaCat]

Sorry for bombarding the site with article links, but I thought this one was really, really funny in parts:

http://slate.com/id/2108461/

[velochat]

It's easy for me. I love France and spend lots of time and money there. I think it's a mistake to ban all religious garb, though, because that just inflames things. Saudi Arabia is horribly corrupt and the source of a lot of our problems (terrorism) and the reasons we are so hated in the Middle East. I have apologized to all of my French friends for Bush and his ascinine war mongering. Also, I buy French products every chance I get, in honor of "w".

[SonomaCat]

I bet your one of those traitorous types who still says "French fries" instead of the Congressionally-revised name of "Freedom fries," aren't you?

The Mickey Rourke line was pretty funny, even though I kind of like his films.

[BozoneCat]

It's easy for me. I love France and spend lots of time and money there. I think it's a mistake to ban all religious garb, though, because that just inflames things. Saudi Arabia is horribly corrupt and the source of a lot of our problems (terrorism) and the reasons we are so hated in the Middle East. I have apologized to all of my French friends for Bush and his ascinine war mongering. Also, I buy French products every chance I get, in honor of "w".

While you are at it, why don't you apologize for saving their freedom on more than one occasion...

Quotes like this make me wonder what the heck goes through otherwise intelligent people's minds? I don't know how anyone can equate helping a country acheive freedom from an oppressive regime while at the same time procuring our own safety and strengthening our economic future to "war mongering."

[SonomaCat]

It's easy for me. I love France and spend lots of time and money there. I think it's a mistake to ban all religious garb, though, because that just inflames things. Saudi Arabia is horribly corrupt and the source of a lot of our problems (terrorism) and the reasons we are so hated in the Middle East. I have apologized to all of my French friends for Bush and his ascinine war mongering. Also, I buy French products every chance I get, in honor of "w".

While you are at it, why don't you apologize for saving their freedom on more than one occasion...

Quotes like this make me wonder what the heck goes through otherwise intelligent people's minds? I don't know how anyone can equate helping a country acheive freedom from an oppressive regime while at the same time procuring our own safety and strengthening our economic future to "war mongering."

If this war does indeed procure our own safety (although Saddam certainly isn't going to use his WMD on us, not that he was going to before), and if it does strengthen our economic future (imperialism? that wasn't a stated purpose of the war, but it is understood that oil was a factor, and was our cost/benefit in terms of $$$ justified on an economic scale?), then the war will look brilliant ten years from now.

As to the oppressive regime... which one is next? Are we to attack every oppressive regime, or just those with oil? Is Saudi Arabia next in line? They are just as oppressive, and they have even more oil, and about 10,000 times more terrorists within their borders.

There are two sides to this argument -- one shouldn't assume that the rest of the world is dumb and we are right, even though everything we have said so far to justify the war has turned out to be untrue.

That being said, I hope that, in retrospect ten years from now, your vision of this war is exactly what turns out to be true.

I hate to say it, but if only we would have listened to France and Germany, we might have achieved the goal of getting Saddam out of power without having to occupy a country that will always hate us (that's just what poor Arab countries do, and we'll never change that). We can mock "cooperation" and "sanctions" all we want, but talking trash without actually firing shots (akin to our inspections and sanctions on Iraq) and hardnosed negotiations are what brought down the Soviet Union -- not a prolonged occupation of Moscow. We now know that Iraq was not a threat when we invaded. Granted, hindsight is 20/20, but it sure would be nice to hear someone acknowledge that we were wrong as opposed to continually changing our reasons for invading to justify our mistakes.

I've never dealt this card in a France debate as I'm usually on the other side, but it should be pointed out that we would have lost the Revolutionary War had it not been for France. We basically just broke even with them during WWII.

[BozoneCat]

Thank you, BAC. See people, it is entirely possible for people to disagree with each other, yet debate the issue in a rational and logical way. This is generally what educated people do. I can disagree with you on this issue, BAC, although you make many good points that I do agree with. Actually, I agree with most of your points, I just disagree with your conclusion.

Do you really think that Saddam was not a threat? Personally, I just think that is a crazy idea to have. He may not have had WMDs (the Democrats' finger-pointing at Bush for this is asinine, a President can only make decisions based on the intelligence he has - and everyone, including Senator Kerry, believed he did have them), but does anyone doubt that he was actively trying to obtain them? Does anyone doubt that he would use them if/when he got them? I mean, the man used gas on his own citizens! When a horrible person like this not only commits unthinkable crimes against humanity, but also sits on top of the world's largest area of oil, and has shown the willingness to use force against other countries in the region that we rely on for said oil, you kick him the hell out of power. The fact that we can hopefully bring freedom and, God willing, some semblance of peace to this area only makes it a more ambitious and fortuitous pursuit. Ultimately, the more we can do to temper the unrest and hatred that predominate this area of the world will make for a more peaceful world, which will keep us safer at home and across the world. That may be an overly optimistic and almost unreachable goal, but that is the American way, and that is what makes us great.

I highly doubt that this whole thing stops with Iraq. The idea is that countries across the world now know that we aren't bullsh*tting them when we tell them we are going to do something, and hopefully we won't have to go to war in the future. Our country has done a lot of talking in the last 30 years, but we haven't backed up our talk with actions. I think this caused people like Saddam to call bullsh*t on us and ignore our repeated attempts at diplomacy. I doubt he would be so bold again - thankfully, he won't get the chance. Despite what you hear from the Dems in the media, we tried over and over and over to deal with Iraq diplomatically, and it just didn't work. Sooner or later, you have to pull out your ace in the hole, which for us is our military.

I don't think comparing Iraq to the USSR is comparing apples and apples. The USSR had a mighty military force that rivaled our own - occupying Moscow was not an option. Reagan did do a tremendous job bringing down the Soviet Union, but I think he made it perfectly clear to Gorbie that he wasn't afraid to use our force if he was made to. Thank God it never came to that. I think it should be noted that Bush looks up to and models himself after Reagan, while Kerry does the same with JFK. Personally, I think that anyone who models their morals/government/ideas after JFK leaves a lot to be desired.

Good point about France and the Revolutionary War, but I think what can be taken from this is that when our allies needed us, we answered the call to help them. The same cannot be said for France right now.

*I hope no one is taking offense to any of this. I enjoy being able to disagree and debate intelligently with other intelligent people, and I think this is one of the absolutely best things about this board!

[BobCatFan]

I think bay area cat has been smoking too much of the california wacky weed. He can't see the forest through the trees. When it comes to France, Like old saying, with friends like this, who needs enemies.

The truth is coming out slowly. Documents found in Iraq show France was in neck deep with the oil for food bribe along with Russia, Chinia, & Germany. Sadamm had bought the UN Security Council. Maybe this explains why the UN would not support us. If I had my way, I would ask the UN to leave the US and I would pull out of the corrupt body. There is a reason why the US has become the greatest nation on earth. We are the least corrupt nation on the earth. This allows the private sector to prosper.

[SonomaCat]

I think bay area cat has been smoking too much of the california wacky weed. He can't see the forest through the trees. When it comes to France, Like old saying, with friends like this, who needs enemies.

The truth is coming out slowly. Documents found in Iraq show France was in neck deep with the oil for food bribe along with Russia, Chinia, & Germany. Sadamm had bought the UN Security Council. Maybe this explains why the UN would not support us. If I had my way, I would ask the UN to leave the US and I would pull out of the corrupt body. There is a reason why the US has become the greatest nation on earth. We are the least corrupt nation on the earth. This allows the private sector to prosper.

I will sleep much better tonight knowing that we are the least corrupt nation on earth. I'm feeling more superior by the minute.

I hope they find the "real killer" mixed in with all of those documents that are slowly coming out. O.J. has been getting a bad rap.

Now where did I leave that medicinal Mary Jane?

[SonomaCat]

Thank you, BAC. See people, it is entirely possible for people to disagree with each other, yet debate the issue in a rational and logical way. This is generally what educated people do. I can disagree with you on this issue, BAC, although you make many good points that I do agree with. Actually, I agree with most of your points, I just disagree with your conclusion.

Do you really think that Saddam was not a threat? Personally, I just think that is a crazy idea to have. He may not have had WMDs (the Democrats' finger-pointing at Bush for this is asinine, a President can only make decisions based on the intelligence he has - and everyone, including Senator Kerry, believed he did have them), but does anyone doubt that he was actively trying to obtain them? Does anyone doubt that he would use them if/when he got them? I mean, the man used gas on his own citizens! When a horrible person like this not only commits unthinkable crimes against humanity, but also sits on top of the world's largest area of oil, and has shown the willingness to use force against other countries in the region that we rely on for said oil, you kick him the hell out of power. The fact that we can hopefully bring freedom and, God willing, some semblance of peace to this area only makes it a more ambitious and fortuitous pursuit. Ultimately, the more we can do to temper the unrest and hatred that predominate this area of the world will make for a more peaceful world, which will keep us safer at home and across the world. That may be an overly optimistic and almost unreachable goal, but that is the American way, and that is what makes us great.

I highly doubt that this whole thing stops with Iraq. The idea is that countries across the world now know that we aren't bullsh*tting them when we tell them we are going to do something, and hopefully we won't have to go to war in the future. Our country has done a lot of talking in the last 30 years, but we haven't backed up our talk with actions. I think this caused people like Saddam to call bullsh*t on us and ignore our repeated attempts at diplomacy. I doubt he would be so bold again - thankfully, he won't get the chance. Despite what you hear from the Dems in the media, we tried over and over and over to deal with Iraq diplomatically, and it just didn't work. Sooner or later, you have to pull out your ace in the hole, which for us is our military.

I don't think comparing Iraq to the USSR is comparing apples and apples. The USSR had a mighty military force that rivaled our own - occupying Moscow was not an option. Reagan did do a tremendous job bringing down the Soviet Union, but I think he made it perfectly clear to Gorbie that he wasn't afraid to use our force if he was made to. Thank God it never came to that. I think it should be noted that Bush looks up to and models himself after Reagan, while Kerry does the same with JFK. Personally, I think that anyone who models their morals/government/ideas after JFK leaves a lot to be desired.

Good point about France and the Revolutionary War, but I think what can be taken from this is that when our allies needed us, we answered the call to help them. The same cannot be said for France right now.

*I hope no one is taking offense to any of this. I enjoy being able to disagree and debate intelligently with other intelligent people, and I think this is one of the absolutely best things about this board!

I agree wholeheartedly on good debates -- something with substance is so much more interesting to be a part of than a lot of other approaches I have seen.

My whole approach to Iraq right now is that I am cautiously optimistic (as I am naturally optimistic -- it's a lot less depressing than the alternative), but I don't want to see us repeat this kind of mission anyplace else. What's done is done and that can't be changed.

[Bleedinbluengold]

I find it quite funny that anyone would actually think anyone else gave a rat $%^& whether velo or anyone else apologizes for our President.

In 10 years, no one will care whether, or not, Iraq was invaded. There will be new things to worry about.

BTW, BAC, the last time a corrupt regime was knocked off and the country didn't control oil, was Afganistan. And before that it was Croatia-Boznia....

Everytime someone comes crying at America's doorstep, we answer the call. And we'll probably continue to do the same into the forseeable future. We suckers, and glutons for punishment.

See ya later, I have to go give myself some lashes and wail a bit.

['93HonoluluCat]

On my long flight to Guam, I read an interesting article in The Economist on the French and their increasingly marginalized foreign policy. It's a very good read for those that care to do so.

In it's content, however, was a paragraph or two that discussed the two French hostages and the impact on the foreign policy mindset of the French government. Apparently, they're surprised that the insurgents/terrorists/ACFs haven't set them free, even after an immediate "deployment" of negotiators into Iraq to assure the kidnappers that France backed the Hussein regime, and opposed the American military action.

Reading the article, what strikes me is the French, while they make good road bikes, seem to not understand that terrorists don't care who's pandering to them or if you meet their demands. They will do anything and everything to further no one's goals and ideals but their own. Need another example of what happens to countries that bow to the terrorists demands? Talk to anyone living in Spain. Their troops beat a hasty withdrawl from Iraq after the bombing of the Madrid rail station. Talk to them about the attacks that still happen--regardless of their stance on Iraq.

Terrorists treat everyone equal--and knowing that, I'd rather take the fight to them and fight on their ground, than wait and see when they'll attack me and see my country attacked the way it was in New York City, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania.

[Bleedinbluengold]

BAC - I'll take this moment to remind you that what brought down the Soviet Union was the fact their economy could not fund their military and their empire. I don't think those 'hard nosed' negotiations had anything to do with their ultimate demise. In fact, their willingness to negotiate was only a direct result of their inability to keep up with defense spending.

[BobCatFan]

I agree with you. BAC needs a history leason.

[SonomaCat]

I agree with you. BAC needs a history leason.

BCF: Way to try to jump on the pile after the play is over....

Bleedin: Good points.