The latest from the world according to Bonds...

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:57 pm

So, after years of adamantly denying charges that he's been on the "juice", Bonds is caught redhanded.

His response (as well as that of his apologists)?

"I didn't know what that stuff was..."

Priceless.

It's amazing to me to listen to people who now have to finally wake up & accept that Bonds cheated in order to improve his performance on the field. I heard a # of baseball "experts" say today that his numbers prior to his physical "metamorphasis" were already good enough to get him in the hall of fame. They want us, essentially, to EXCUSE the fact that he cheated and made a mockery of a game that dates back over a century because he was a good player BEFORE he cheated. Pete Rose must be grinning from ear to ear because he was a great player long before he ever bet on baseball; with the ESPN guys logic, Rose should be inducted into the Hall immediately.

Which brings me to another point. One of the most insidious things about what Bonds has done is how he ROBBED other teams and players of their possible "moments in the sun". If Barry wasn't juiced, how do we really know that the Giants should have been in the World Series a few years ago against the Angels? How many National League teams might have been in that or other post-season series if Bonds wasn't directly affecting games because he cheated? That fact ALONE should label him a disgrace...

I'm not just pissed about Bonds; this is directed at EVERY player who's cheated; how it dishonors all those who play and played clean. Some people have this attitude that "Oh well, there's lots of guys doing it; I just like to watch him hit monster home runs into McCovey Cove..." and totally ignore the fact that he couldn't possibly accomplish those feats without cheating. Great message to our youth; "Well, yes, he is a cheater, but he's just so fun to watch..."

And how about now that he has essentially admitted to committing a "mistake" in not knowing what substances he was using? Honestly, put yourself in that position... You are about to break THE MOST HALLOWED OF ALL SPORTS RECORDS, the Major League Career Home Run record, and you now discover that you've been ACCIDENTALLY (yeah right, Barry) using an illegal substance along the way. Do you still go after the record? If you achieve it, how do you feel about it? How should the millions of fans of baseball feel about it? I don't really know but I do know that IT SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.

I'm sorry but if Barry wants us to buy his crappy defense, he should retire right now because without the unbelievable #'s he's posted the last 5 years, we wouldn't be worrying about him passing Ruth or Aaron. And it's pretty clear now that a significant reason he achieved those #'s was due to steroids. In other words, regardless of whether he's telling the truth or not, HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS ARE NOW TAINTED FOREVER, BASED ON HIS OWN ADMISSIONS...

Speaking of his "confession"; I've always felt that Barry literally DESPISES fans & sportwriters; it's just the way he has always carried himself. So it's no surprise to me that he now thinks us idiot fans will buy his story that he was ignorant to the "stuff" he was using. He actually expects us to believe that his "trainer" told Giambi & other clients what the stuff was, but never shared that info with Barry? Give me a break.

Bottom line: Barry Bonds willfully used banned substances to give himself an edge over "clean" players in the league. Nothing he's accomplished can overcome that fact IMO and any mention of him or his accomplishments should come with a mandatory asterisk...

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:15 pm

Honest question: Would you dislike Bonds with or without the steroid issue? If this leaked testimony was from, say, Mark McGwire, would you be posting with such venom? I am just curious.

I personally kind of like the fact that Bonds is surly towards the press. He's not a self-promoter and doesn't try to put himself in the public eye (compare and contrast Bonds and Terrell Owens). He just speaks with his play on the field, and doesn't let the off-the-field distractions get to him.

If he knowingly took steroids, I am obviously deeply disappointed in his judgment.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:47 pm

BAC, I am getting the feeling you would back Bonds no matter what he admits to doing. If he were found guilty of rape (ala Frank Brown) would you still say he is fun to watch hit a baseball? You have to admit it, he is a disgrace - period.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:59 pm

WYCAT wrote:BAC, I am getting the feeling you would back Bonds no matter what he admits to doing. If he were found guilty of rape (ala Frank Brown) would you still say he is fun to watch hit a baseball? You have to admit it, he is a disgrace - period.

I am saddened and disappointed by this whole thing, but at no point have I defended his alleged actions.

On the other hand, I think some people started out hating Bonds, and are using this as their vindication. I don't know if that includes anyone in here, but in talking with many Bonds-haters (and they are everywhere), people are more interested in condemning Bonds individually than the steroids use specifically as a concept. You just don't hear nearly as much outrage towards Giambi or the numerous other players who have been outed.

I admit that I like watching him play, and that won't change. But at no point have I defended his actions or denied my assumption that he probably did do it (even before the recent press leak that left no doubt).

Of course, if he actually did do something that actually did real harm to someone (such as rape) as opposed to the crimes of vanity towards baseball, then I would be the first person to write him off as a bad human being.

I still find it interesting how some people are so very, very emotional over this topic. I personally find it sad and disappointing on a human level, but not something that will really affect my life one way or another. However, in recent posts in here, I get the feeling that if one doesn't feel as though Bonds should be torn limb from limb by a pack of wolves, then they just aren't dealing with reality.

Incidentally, and in the spirit of full disclosure, I was much more upset about Sosa's bat corking than the average baseball fan. And, out of pure coincidence

, I just happen to not be able to stand Sosa. So I do think that people's preconceived feelings about a player do play into their reactions of their transgressions. I also thought that Sosa should pee in the cup for Rick Reilly. Of course, I think all players should do that. We wouldn't be having these discussions if they had a testing program in place years ago. We probably all agree on that point.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:15 pm

I guess your original question was fair. I admit I have always hated Bonds. He is one of the most arrogant sports stars in history. I would say my biggest complaint/worry here is his pursuit, and likely conquering, of Hank Aaron's 755 record. This is one of the most hallowed records of all time and to see a jerk, not to mention cheater, claim the crown saddens me. I will say baseball, as an organization, failed here more than Barry Bonds. I decent substance abuse policy that the players union wasn't able to minimize to the point of useless would be a start. But to answer your question I think the reason there is so much uproar against Barry is because of A)the records and things he has done in his career overshadow the Giambi's, Caminiti's, etc. and B) he is a class A jerk and people have been waiting and hoping for his fall.

It should be interesting to see how this all settles out.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:38 pm

Honest answer:

I have detested Bonds ever since he started getting so much attention and yes, that was before his "blossoming" physically. For a player who has more money than he & his descendants could ever possibly spend to treat the very people who've given that money to him with such disdain & disgust to me is sickening.

If the same allegations proved true about McGwire, I can honestly say that I would feel cheated myself and I WOULD in fact view McGwire in a harsh way whenever I heard his name. Roger Maris' legacy & his family deserve better than to be second-fiddle to a feat accomplished, at least in part, by someone who CHEATED to achieve said feat. I've never been a big Mac fan to begin with; he & Canseco always left me with a certain "distaste" & distrust of their otherwordly physiques... It would not surprise me in the least to learn that McGwire was juiced as well. Speaking of which, isn't he currently experiencing some health problems? My memory bank seems to recall something along those lines the last year or two...

In summary, "speaking with your play on the field" is fine when it comes to the media but again, I especially detest Bonds' attitude toward the fans. The mere fact that he has cheated and doesn't seem to think that it affects his record-chasing is unbelievable IMO and could, in all honesty, be the most selfish & arrogant act an athlete has ever performed...

I honestly think this is far worse than Charlie Hustle placing wagers on baseball games...

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:39 pm

El G - those of us who live in reality world, and I include you in that group, are not the ones surprised one bit that Bonds and probably over half the other MLB players do/did steroids. Nor are we the ones that need anymore "proof" of that fact.

Unfortunately, it appears that you still think that MLB is something more important than the WWE, which it is not, in my opinion. The sad part about steroid use in professional sports, in my opinion, is the fact that some people have made professional sports and their participants out to be something more important than they really are. At least the WWE doesn't try to convince us that their form of entertainment is anything more than just that. The thing that pisses me off about MLB is that they are trying to convince me (i.e., those of us living in reality world) that MLB is a serious sport with serious records and serious players. MLB is a complete joke, and so are the people that run it.

Which brings me to the fact this is an example of uncontrolled, unmitigated, adultrated capitalism. That's why most people, us included, live in reality world, because without rules and laws, this is how we humans would act, in general.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:44 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote:El G - those of us who live in reality world, and I include you in that group, are not the ones surprised one bit that Bonds and probably over half the other MLB players do/did steroids. Nor are we the ones that need anymore "proof" of that fact.

Unfortunately, it appears that you still think that MLB is something more important than the WWE, which it is not, in my opinion. The sad part about steroid use in professional sports, in my opinion, is the fact that some people have made professional sports and their participants out to be something more important than they really are. At least the WWE doesn't try to convince us that their form of entertainment is anything more than just that. The thing that pisses me off about MLB is that they are trying to convince me (i.e., those of us living in reality world) that MLB is a serious sport with serious records and serious players. MLB is a complete joke, and so are the people that run it.

Which brings me to the fact this is an example of uncontrolled, unmitigated, adultrated capitalism. That's why most people, us included, live in reality world, because without rules and laws, this is how we humans would act, in general.

This has to be my nomination for profound thinking post of the month. Good stuff.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:47 pm

El_Gato wrote:Honest answer:

I honestly think this is far worse than Charlie Hustle placing wagers on baseball games...

Speaking of Pete Rose. How ironic is it that betting baseball is more of tarnish on this 'hallowed' game than Daryl Strawberry being a drug user, wife beater, adulterer. I really hope Strawberry makes it into the Hall of Fame, because that will be crowning achievement in this whole controversay.

Again....MLB is a complete joke.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:49 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote:The thing that pisses me off about MLB is that they are trying to convince me (i.e., those of us living in reality world) that MLB is a serious sport with serious records and serious players. MLB is a complete joke, and so are the people that run it.

I agree but I guess I still believe that it doesn't HAVE to be a complete joke. How EASY is it to simply test these guys & make sure that they ARE, in fact, clean?

Sports are & always have been a big part of my life; one which I would like to continue to enjoy. It sickens me to think that someday my future grandchildren might turn to me & say "Grandad, Barry Bonds was the greatest home run hitter of all time..."

Right now, I'm hoping for 3 things from MLB:

1) LEGITIMATE testing for banned substances & SEVERE penalties for their use.
2) That Barry Bonds DOES NOT pass Hank Aaron. What a disgrace and dishonor.
3) That Albert Pujols doesn't prove to be "on" anything illegal or banned. If this kid is clean & healthy, in 15 years we won't give a CRAP about Barry Bonds.

Maybe I'm naive, but I DO BELIEVE that all sports can get back to some purer roots. I know there is a lot of money & corruption in college sports too, but watching the Cats and/or griz and watching the NCAA basketball tournament is STILL the best entertainment on the planet!

As Kramer said, sports IS the ultimate reality show! (or at least it should be)

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 pm

This is kind of getting off of the topic of Bond's steroid use (but does kind of dovetail off of my initial question), but I think that Bond's disregard for the fans is a bit overblown. It seems to be universally known by all sports fans that Barry Bonds doesn't show enough love to the fans. Where does that idea come from? How many sports fans really get close enough to him to know how he feels about them? And even if he doesn't really care for fans, what's the big deal about that? Do we prefer something like the Sammy Sosa approach, where he mugs for the camera, pretends to be a fan-loving guy, and then jokes about how he dupes the fanbase off-camera? For the most part, most of these guys don't give a rip about the fans. And why would they? We are a pain in the ass. We rip them when they are at their lowest, we crawl on the bandwagon when things are going well, and we tend to whine because we aren't appreciated constantly. Sure, we are the customers, and it is through us (especially those of us who go to the games fairly often) that they make their money, but you just can't buy love, and we probably don't deserve that much love based on the way we collectively act anyway.

I honestly think that Bonds isn't guilty of not appreciating the fans any more than most other players. His sin is that he's not friendly to the press. As a result of his bad relationship with the press, he gets a lot of bad write-ups, which then informs the fans all across the country (most of whom have no first-hand exposure to the guy) that he is a bad guy who they shouldn't like. If sports writers had a similar relationship with any other given player, they could turn him into an ogre in the public eye just as easily.

I have to admit, I'm not on Bond's Christmas card list, either, even though some of my cash has ended up in his pocket, but I'm learning to deal with that.

Conversely, the press fawned all over guys like McGwire (which is why I used him as an example) because he was the "savior" of baseball and realized during his HR roll that it was in his best interest to shed his own historical growly demeanor and instead market himself as a big happy teddy bear. He came out way ahead financially that way, so it was a great PR move. I tend to agree with El Gato -- I have my suspicions that he wasn't 100% natural, either.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, and how it does affect his play (if any) this coming season, and what impact it will have on his legacy. It may also cast suspicion on all of the impressive offensive performances we have seen across the league over the last several seasons.

DCC2MSU · Post by **DCC2MSU** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:10 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote:
El_Gato wrote:Honest answer:

I honestly think this is far worse than Charlie Hustle placing wagers on baseball games...
Speaking of Pete Rose. How ironic is it that betting baseball is more of tarnish on this 'hallowed' game than Daryl Strawberry being a drug user, wife beater, adulterer. I really hope Strawberry makes it into the Hall of Fame, because that will be crowning achievement in this whole controversay.

Again....MLB is a complete joke.

Betting on baseball, when you are in a position to influence the outcome of the game. is without a doubt more of a tarnish on the game. How did Strawberry's drug use/wife beating/adultery have a profound effect on the outcome of the games he played in? I am not at all a fan of either of those people; but from a purely baseball standpoint I have far less respect for Rose.