How the U.S. torture program came to be

A place to share your views and make your case on any issues fit to discuss.

Moderators: rtb, kmax, SonomaCat

User avatar
SonomaCat
Moderator
Posts: 23938
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Contact:

How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by SonomaCat » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:00 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/po ... odayspaper

The responses from Pelosi and Graham at the end should result in them being called out for not only not objecting to the program, but for being such bad liars about it after-the-fact.

There's a lot of blame to go around ... and nobody should be exempted.

That said, I don't want to see prosecutions of the people that did this. I think that admitting that we did it, noting that it was wrong (illegal, etc.) and that we will actually follow the guidelines of the treaties that we have signed on to (and expect everyone else to follow) from here on out is the best thing we can do right now. Prosecuting people will just turn into a big partisan mess, and the people that actually gave the orders will never be the ones who actually get punished ... it would just end up being some "yes man" that did the dirty work under orders that would take the fall.



User avatar
AlphaGriz1
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 10209
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:13 pm
Location: Dominating BN since 1997............

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by AlphaGriz1 » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:23 pm

In any case I am glad they did it.


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
www.maroonblood.com
www.championshipsubdivision.com

User avatar
tampa_griz
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: St. Petersburg, FL

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by tampa_griz » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:25 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/po ... odayspaper

The responses from Pelosi and Graham at the end should result in them being called out for not only not objecting to the program, but for being such bad liars about it after-the-fact.

There's a lot of blame to go around ... and nobody should be exempted.

That said, I don't want to see prosecutions of the people that did this. I think that admitting that we did it, noting that it was wrong (illegal, etc.) and that we will actually follow the guidelines of the treaties that we have signed on to (and expect everyone else to follow) from here on out is the best thing we can do right now. Prosecuting people will just turn into a big partisan mess, and the people that actually gave the orders will never be the ones who actually get punished ... it would just end up being some "yes man" that did the dirty work under orders that would take the fall.
Lots of thoughts on this.....the most surprising (at least to me) is that this article as well as Obama's intelligence chief refutes a personal belief that "torture doesn't work". Apparently it does.

But BAC, you did mention that practices cited are/were "illegal". By what law/treaty are you referring to?



User avatar
SonomaCat
Moderator
Posts: 23938
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Contact:

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by SonomaCat » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:33 pm

tampa_griz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/po ... odayspaper

The responses from Pelosi and Graham at the end should result in them being called out for not only not objecting to the program, but for being such bad liars about it after-the-fact.

There's a lot of blame to go around ... and nobody should be exempted.

That said, I don't want to see prosecutions of the people that did this. I think that admitting that we did it, noting that it was wrong (illegal, etc.) and that we will actually follow the guidelines of the treaties that we have signed on to (and expect everyone else to follow) from here on out is the best thing we can do right now. Prosecuting people will just turn into a big partisan mess, and the people that actually gave the orders will never be the ones who actually get punished ... it would just end up being some "yes man" that did the dirty work under orders that would take the fall.
Lots of thoughts on this.....the most surprising (at least to me) is that this article as well as Obama's intelligence chief refutes a personal belief that "torture doesn't work". Apparently it does.

But BAC, you did mention that practices cited are/were "illegal". By what law/treaty are you referring to?
Illegal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_an ... ted_States

Obama's intelligence chief:
“The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
Obviously, the rational test for any procedure isn't merely "Does it sometimes work?" but rather "Is it the best way of getting that information?"

I have yet to read any recognized expert on the subject conclude that torture is the best way of getting factually accurate information out of someone.



User avatar
tampa_griz
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: St. Petersburg, FL

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by tampa_griz » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:45 pm

So we've went from "torture doesn't work" to "there might be a better way to glean this information but I don't know of one". I'll make a note of that.

By the way, members of AQ do not qualify as privileged combatants.



User avatar
SonomaCat
Moderator
Posts: 23938
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Contact:

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by SonomaCat » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:52 pm

tampa_griz wrote:So we've went from "torture doesn't work" to "there might be a better way to glean this information but I don't know of one". I'll make a note of that.
Constructing a straw man there, I see. Coming along nicely. :D
By the way, members of AQ do not qualify as privileged combatants.
I take it you didn't actually read what I posted and instead just replied assuming I'd say "Geneva Convention." That would explain why your response doesn't make sense in response to what I posted.



User avatar
tampa_griz
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: St. Petersburg, FL

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by tampa_griz » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:00 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:So we've went from "torture doesn't work" to "there might be a better way to glean this information but I don't know of one". I'll make a note of that.
Constructing a straw man there, I see. Coming along nicely. :D
Do you want me to read your article back to you?
tampa_griz wrote:By the way, members of AQ do not qualify as privileged combatants.
Bay Area Cat wrote:I take it you didn't actually read what I posted and instead just replied assuming I'd say "Geneva Convention." That would explain why your response doesn't make sense in response to what I posted.
No I took a quick gander at the domestic legislation (as well as the UN part that I referenced) you referenced that does not include the military. If it did, you'd have to shut down Ft. Bragg (and many other installations) and arrest a lot of military personnel. Try harder.



User avatar
SonomaCat
Moderator
Posts: 23938
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Contact:

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by SonomaCat » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:02 pm

If you want to argue that torture is legal, tampa, be my guest.

Let us know when you find any legal expert that agrees with you.



User avatar
tampa_griz
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: St. Petersburg, FL

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by tampa_griz » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:09 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:If you want to argue that torture is legal, tampa, be my guest.

Let us know when you find any legal expert that agrees with you.
But there's the rub....what is "torture"? We waterboard our own soldiers at SERE (yes, we do). Should the instructors be prosecuted for committing torture? Is that simple? I guess so.....

Homicide is subject to prosecution as well last I checked. But for some reason we're not arresting soldiers that committed homicide. Crazy!



User avatar
SonomaCat
Moderator
Posts: 23938
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Contact:

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by SonomaCat » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:13 pm

tampa_griz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:If you want to argue that torture is legal, tampa, be my guest.

Let us know when you find any legal expert that agrees with you.
But there's the rub....what is "torture"? We waterboard our own soldiers at SERE (yes, we do). Should the instructors be prosecuted for committing torture? Is that simple? I guess so.....

Homicide is subject to prosecution as well last I checked. But for some reason we're not arresting soldiers that committed homicide. Crazy!
http://www.slate.com/id/2216702/

And to put a hard legal edge on the difference between the two ... the SERE participants VOLUNTEER to undergo that treatment as training for the potential of being tortured in foreign hands. Torture with the consent of the torturee obviously isn't illegal ... just non-consentual torture falls into that category.



User avatar
tampa_griz
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: St. Petersburg, FL

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by tampa_griz » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:20 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:If you want to argue that torture is legal, tampa, be my guest.

Let us know when you find any legal expert that agrees with you.
But there's the rub....what is "torture"? We waterboard our own soldiers at SERE (yes, we do). Should the instructors be prosecuted for committing torture? Is that simple? I guess so.....

Homicide is subject to prosecution as well last I checked. But for some reason we're not arresting soldiers that committed homicide. Crazy!
http://www.slate.com/id/2216702/
The opinion as to whether or not we should continue waterboarding of a Slate columnist does not help us figure out if it's illegal or not. It just says we do it to our own too. Hell, we throw our own in CS chambers (good times). Is that form of torture illegal too?
Bay Area Cat wrote:And to put a hard legal edge on the difference between the two ... the SERE participants VOLUNTEER to undergo that treatment as training for the potential of being tortured in foreign hands. Torture with the consent of the torturee obviously isn't illegal ... just non-consentual torture falls into that category
I don't remember Khalid Shaikh Mohammed VOLUNTEERING to be kidnapped....an act strictly forbidden by the law you referenced earlier. Man, we got a legal mess on our hands.



User avatar
SonomaCat
Moderator
Posts: 23938
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Contact:

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by SonomaCat » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:25 am




User avatar
BearCat
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 437
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:27 pm

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by BearCat » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:55 pm

AlphaGriz1 wrote:In any case I am glad they did it.
Me too!


Sincerely, Avid Griz & Bobcat Fan!

User avatar
tampa_griz
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: St. Petersburg, FL

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by tampa_griz » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:36 pm

BearCat wrote:
AlphaGriz1 wrote:In any case I am glad they did it.
Me too!
You shouldn't be glad about it. You should be sad that this is the way it has to be.
Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, addressing Yasser Arafat wrote:I can forgive you for killing my boys, but I can never forgive you for making our boys kill yours."



User avatar
Bleedinbluengold
BobcatNation Hall of Famer
Posts: 3427
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:24 am
Location: Belly of the Beast

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by Bleedinbluengold » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:50 pm

AlphaGriz1 wrote:In any case I am glad they did it.
One man's torture is another man's persuasive argument, I say.


Montana State IS what "they" think Montana is.

User avatar
SonomaCat
Moderator
Posts: 23938
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Contact:

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by SonomaCat » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:55 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote:
AlphaGriz1 wrote:In any case I am glad they did it.
One man's torture is another man's persuasive argument, I say.
That sounds like a line that would be delivered by a bad guy with a funny accept in an old Bond film. :wink:



User avatar
AlphaGriz1
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 10209
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:13 pm
Location: Dominating BN since 1997............

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by AlphaGriz1 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:01 am

tampa_griz wrote:
BearCat wrote:
AlphaGriz1 wrote:In any case I am glad they did it.
Me too!
You shouldn't be glad about it. You should be sad that this is the way it has to be.
Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, addressing Yasser Arafat wrote:I can forgive you for killing my boys, but I can never forgive you for making our boys kill yours."

Really?


Look I am against torture, but lets face it, it happens.

So it's really easy for me to play by the rules set up by our enemies. When they stop doing this, then we can as well.......but not before.


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
www.maroonblood.com
www.championshipsubdivision.com

User avatar
tampa_griz
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: St. Petersburg, FL

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by tampa_griz » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:14 am

AlphaGriz1 wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:
BearCat wrote:
AlphaGriz1 wrote:In any case I am glad they did it.
Me too!
You shouldn't be glad about it. You should be sad that this is the way it has to be.
Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, addressing Yasser Arafat wrote:I can forgive you for killing my boys, but I can never forgive you for making our boys kill yours."

Really?


Look I am against torture, but lets face it, it happens.

So it's really easy for me to play by the rules set up by our enemies. When they stop doing this, then we can as well.......but not before.
I didn't say we have to cease waterboarding. I just don't think it's really bad taste to be proud of it.



User avatar
AlphaGriz1
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 10209
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:13 pm
Location: Dominating BN since 1997............

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by AlphaGriz1 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:03 pm

Waterboarding isnt even really torture so its a moot point.


I will say it again, I am glad we did/do it to get ANY kind of information to keep this country safe.


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
www.maroonblood.com
www.championshipsubdivision.com

User avatar
SonomaCat
Moderator
Posts: 23938
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Contact:

Re: How the U.S. torture program came to be

Post by SonomaCat » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:12 pm

Shepherd Smith going off script a bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEtFMj6ZiHM



Post Reply