Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

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thefrank1
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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by thefrank1 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:51 pm

Coach was way out of line several times a game. Couldn't manage his own emotions and vented his frustration inappropriately on several players. The reaction of players to his coaching parallels that of Bobby Knight after he went off the deep end. People in the crowd at home games often chided him over his inappropriate behavior. Fans of opposing teams even commented on his bad behavior with his team.



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by phantom » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:00 am

Catlady wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:56 pm
Big gap between the two..... ok to be a tough coach, but it makes no sense to totally tear a player down every night!
I know it might’ve been different on your badminton team....Phantom. But there’s many a way to inspire a player!
My badminton team ... lol You are the one that obviously has never been in competition. You want to see why this program will never be any good, look at comments and viewpoints like yours. You want players to be pushed and held accountable, just don't hurt their feelings. The reality is that all coaches at the Division level are hard on their players. Some just do it behind closed doors, some aren't fake and coach them publicly as they do at practice.



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by Ilikecats » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:16 am

phantom wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:00 am
Catlady wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:56 pm
Big gap between the two..... ok to be a tough coach, but it makes no sense to totally tear a player down every night!
I know it might’ve been different on your badminton team....Phantom. But there’s many a way to inspire a player!
My badminton team ... lol You are the one that obviously has never been in competition. You want to see why this program will never be any good, look at comments and viewpoints like yours. You want players to be pushed and held accountable, just don't hurt their feelings. The reality is that all coaches at the Division level are hard on their players. Some just do it behind closed doors, some aren't fake and coach them publicly as they do at practice.
Not sure what you’re trying to say Phantom. I agree it’s ok to push players and hold them accountable, but I don’t get the need for public embarrassment. There’s many ways to get a players attention. I thought that Fish often went a little to far. You have to adjust to the situation. Maybe once or twice a year you might publicly chew on a player, but when it’s 10-15 times a season, the message gets lost in the method. I thought Fish had reached that point. I know of a recruit who played his high school hoops in Bozeman and ended up in Missoula, who felt the same way. It’s all about building a winning culture.



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by GoldstoneCat » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:06 am

msu_agfan wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:51 pm
I've yet to see evidence to convince me Fish went across the "line" in abusing the players, he wasn't a quiet mushroom sitting on the side of the court, but I just have not seen the excessively mean spirit that some hint at. I also do not necessarily believe that the "majority" of the fans feel this was a good decision to let him go. You can say these things enough so that you will believe it. But, from those who care about the program, those who actually post here on a regular basis, you will not see those things convincingly spoken of. It is what it is though, and so we get to move on. Hopefully if we find ourselves in a similar position in 5 years, we decide to break the cycle and try out loyalty, continuity, steadiness, just try it. My personality wants to believe it would work, for my two cents. Go Cats! May our next coach be exactly what we need.
I'm with you here. I was torn about the whole situation, and am ok with the move although i wouldn't have made it. I have had the thought in the past that fish was hated by his team, but the way they supported him this year, and galvanized as a team when his daughter died, speaks to an alternate reality. It's true, there are ways to push players without berating or belittling them, and without being in the program I'll never know completely whether fish crossed the line. Here's hoping we move on and up, because the cupboard isn't totally bare like it was last time.



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by thefrank1 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:40 am

Cupboard wasn't quite bare, we had Marcus Coleman.



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by phantom » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:43 am

Ilikecats wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:16 am

Not sure what you’re trying to say Phantom. I agree it’s ok to push players and hold them accountable, but I don’t get the need for public embarrassment. There’s many ways to get a players attention. I thought that Fish often went a little to far. You have to adjust to the situation. Maybe once or twice a year you might publicly chew on a player, but when it’s 10-15 times a season, the message gets lost in the method. I thought Fish had reached that point. I know of a recruit who played his high school hoops in Bozeman and ended up in Missoula, who felt the same way. It’s all about building a winning culture.
I think it's easy to use loaded language and vague terms. What is public embarrassment is to you, is going to be different to me, as well as others. For some, that's as simple as a coach chewing on a player for making a mistake. The games are played publicly, players are at times going to be publicly chewed. Don't get me wrong, there are words and phrases that I consider over the line.
I also don't disagree that as a coach you run the risk of the message getting lost in the method. In year four, it's very possible that happened, along with some personalities in the locker room that were a bad fit. This year, the team responded much differently. So, either the culture of the locker room changed, or the way Fish handled things changed. Either way, there was definitely improvement from year 4 to year 5, which again goes back to what I've maintained all along ... if that was the issue, then let him go at the end of year 4.



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by WalkOn79 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:53 am

Catlady wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:01 am
You must not go to games. It’s very noticeable and somewhat painful. You could call it borderline abusive. I want a little ass kickin from the Coach but this exceeded the norm!
I've went to almost EVERY game the last 4 years. Borderline abusive? Really? I just don't agree.


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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by WalkOn79 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:51 am

thefrank1 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:40 am
Cupboard wasn't quite bare, we had Marcus Coleman.
Colbert, but I get your point.


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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by WalkOn79 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:53 am

GoldstoneCat wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:06 am
msu_agfan wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:51 pm
I've yet to see evidence to convince me Fish went across the "line" in abusing the players, he wasn't a quiet mushroom sitting on the side of the court, but I just have not seen the excessively mean spirit that some hint at. I also do not necessarily believe that the "majority" of the fans feel this was a good decision to let him go. You can say these things enough so that you will believe it. But, from those who care about the program, those who actually post here on a regular basis, you will not see those things convincingly spoken of. It is what it is though, and so we get to move on. Hopefully if we find ourselves in a similar position in 5 years, we decide to break the cycle and try out loyalty, continuity, steadiness, just try it. My personality wants to believe it would work, for my two cents. Go Cats! May our next coach be exactly what we need.
I'm with you here. I was torn about the whole situation, and am ok with the move although i wouldn't have made it. I have had the thought in the past that fish was hated by his team, but the way they supported him this year, and galvanized as a team when his daughter died, speaks to an alternate reality. It's true, there are ways to push players without berating or belittling them, and without being in the program I'll never know completely whether fish crossed the line. Here's hoping we move on and up, because the cupboard isn't totally bare like it was last time.
I truly believe Fish was respected and perhaps even loved by his players, regardless of what we thought we were seeing on game days.


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of Montana State football
will not be entrusted to
the timid or weak!"

Cliff Hysell, RIP

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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by WalkOn79 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:55 am

And to be clear, I'm not a Fish apologist as I support a change in direction here based on job performance. I just don't think player treatment had much if anything to do with this decision by Leon.


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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by WalkOn79 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:57 am

phantom wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:43 am
Ilikecats wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:16 am

Not sure what you’re trying to say Phantom. I agree it’s ok to push players and hold them accountable, but I don’t get the need for public embarrassment. There’s many ways to get a players attention. I thought that Fish often went a little to far. You have to adjust to the situation. Maybe once or twice a year you might publicly chew on a player, but when it’s 10-15 times a season, the message gets lost in the method. I thought Fish had reached that point. I know of a recruit who played his high school hoops in Bozeman and ended up in Missoula, who felt the same way. It’s all about building a winning culture.
I think it's easy to use loaded language and vague terms. What is public embarrassment is to you, is going to be different to me, as well as others. For some, that's as simple as a coach chewing on a player for making a mistake. The games are played publicly, players are at times going to be publicly chewed. Don't get me wrong, there are words and phrases that I consider over the line.
I also don't disagree that as a coach you run the risk of the message getting lost in the method. In year four, it's very possible that happened, along with some personalities in the locker room that were a bad fit. This year, the team responded much differently. So, either the culture of the locker room changed, or the way Fish handled things changed. Either way, there was definitely improvement from year 4 to year 5, which again goes back to what I've maintained all along ... if that was the issue, then let him go at the end of year 4.
Good Post BTW


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of Montana State football
will not be entrusted to
the timid or weak!"

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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by msu_agfan » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:04 pm

WalkOn79 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:53 am
Catlady wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:01 am
You must not go to games. It’s very noticeable and somewhat painful. You could call it borderline abusive. I want a little ass kickin from the Coach but this exceeded the norm!
I've went to almost EVERY game the last 4 years. Borderline abusive? Really? I just don't agree.
I'm perplexed by that wording too, especially if a "little ass kickin" is acceptable. Fish did yell out players names often, which kinda was fun to hear, SARP!!! haha. It might have been hard on some. Like has been mentioned, it seems Fish was calming down some this year; so I really find it hard to understand people thinking he was too aggressive. If some recruits don't come because of that, so be it. Recruits don't come for a plethora of reasons. My pastor has a saying, "Not Perfection, but Direction". NOBODY is perfect or even close, but are they moving towards that or away from that. Fish was moving towards that. Our next coach should also be held to a standard of getting better, in wins and in team growth. But, don't get ready to hang him after 4 years if he is getting better. If he is getting worse, I understand the pressures. Just like some might not choose MSU because of a coach who gets in their face, others will not choose us if we have a track record of bagging our coaches every 5 years and the coach they like has been coaching for 3 or 4 years....


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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by ddlalum » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:04 pm

GoldstoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:16 am
The only explanation for letting him play out the string is $$. Not wanting to pay a buyout. Pesky thing happened though, the team improved throughout the season, and I have to wonder if we had won those 2 road games at the end and finished third, what move is made? I feel like costello didn't get this right either time.
I really hope $$ wasn't the only factor in letting Fish complete his contract. If $$ was the only factor, that basically means that MSU is trying to run a Division 1 basketball program on the cheap. If you want to try and elevate your program past the middle of the conference, then you have to stop acting like you should be at the bottom.

I kind of wonder if there wasn’t some consideration in what Tyler wanted, whether Fish got the last year on his contract. Hard to believe $$ alone was the only factor.

I understand why Fish’s contract was not renewed, but kind of surprised at the same time. Overall, I thought the program improved over the last 5 years, though not enough I guess. I just hope this isn’t the start of a pattern where we fire our coach every 5 years, in the hopes of catching lightning in a bottle, while still trying to run a program on the cheap, with no investments into it.



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by MSmith1968 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:12 pm

ddlalum wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:04 pm
GoldstoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:16 am
The only explanation for letting him play out the string is $$. Not wanting to pay a buyout. Pesky thing happened though, the team improved throughout the season, and I have to wonder if we had won those 2 road games at the end and finished third, what move is made? I feel like costello didn't get this right either time.
I really hope $$ wasn't the only factor in letting Fish complete his contract. If $$ was the only factor, that basically means that MSU is trying to run a Division 1 basketball program on the cheap. If you want to try and elevate your program past the middle of the conference, then you have to stop acting like you should be at the bottom.

I kind of wonder if there wasn’t some consideration in what Tyler wanted, whether Fish got the last year on his contract. Hard to believe $$ alone was the only factor.

I understand why Fish’s contract was not renewed, but kind of surprised at the same time. Overall, I thought the program improved over the last 5 years, though not enough I guess. I just hope this isn’t the start of a pattern where we fire our coach every 5 years, in the hopes of catching lightning in a bottle, while still trying to run a program on the cheap, with no investments into it.
Absolutely it was money, they should have let him go last year. No other reason.



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:30 pm

MSmith1968 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:12 pm
ddlalum wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:04 pm
GoldstoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:16 am
The only explanation for letting him play out the string is $$. Not wanting to pay a buyout. Pesky thing happened though, the team improved throughout the season, and I have to wonder if we had won those 2 road games at the end and finished third, what move is made? I feel like costello didn't get this right either time.
I really hope $$ wasn't the only factor in letting Fish complete his contract. If $$ was the only factor, that basically means that MSU is trying to run a Division 1 basketball program on the cheap. If you want to try and elevate your program past the middle of the conference, then you have to stop acting like you should be at the bottom.

I kind of wonder if there wasn’t some consideration in what Tyler wanted, whether Fish got the last year on his contract. Hard to believe $$ alone was the only factor.

I understand why Fish’s contract was not renewed, but kind of surprised at the same time. Overall, I thought the program improved over the last 5 years, though not enough I guess. I just hope this isn’t the start of a pattern where we fire our coach every 5 years, in the hopes of catching lightning in a bottle, while still trying to run a program on the cheap, with no investments into it.
Absolutely it was money, they should have let him go last year. No other reason.
I agree. And I think it was the right call. Yes, the team improved a bit from years past. Still nothing amazing. Had Fish done something remarkable this season he might have been able to save his job. But barely improving in year five over your previous four years just didn't cut it. So they made the move now and we saved some money.

Based on the state of this program the last 20+ years....this seems like the right call



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by CelticCat » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:47 pm

What is our basketball budget compared to other conference members, does anyone know?


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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by BLACKnBLUEnGOLD » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:38 pm

It seems like there are two different ideas that people have about coaching contracts. Some people ask "what did he do to show that he has to go?" Others ask "what did he do to show that he has to stay?"

Neither of those questions have a strong answer, which to me is a big reason why there wasn't a lot of talk about firing in-season. That plus the personal stuff, why even bring it up? It's not necessarily imperative to fire a guy whose team has improved, who has shown he can adapt to the point of adopting an entirely new offense to the benefit of the team, and whose teams don't collapse into non-competitive dumpster fires like every single Huse team did.

At the same time, it's not imperative to keep a coach who failed to have a single winning season in four years with a once-in-a-lifetime player like Tyler Hall. Who never came close to advancing to the NCAA, NIT, or even CBI in that time. Who won only one conference tournament game with that player. In the end, I think Fish was a step up from Huse, but not a big enough step that a team that fires Huse would necessarily keep Fish. It's the kind of thing where I won't dance on the guy's grave, but at the same time, I'm not terribly upset to see him go. Basketball-wise, at least. The personal stuff is absolutely tragic.

Regarding the timing of the dismissal, it sucks, but there wasn't a better time to do it. A coaching change pretty much guarantees a step back as a team, and do you really want to waste the last year of Tyler Hall on that? Better to roll the dice with the guy you have and see if he can make something happen in his contract year, and your star's senior year.

This year, a new coach has some pieces that he can sell to any big-time impact players he might be able to talk into following him to MSU. If the guy's a pure scorer, you can tell him he steps right into Tyler Hall's role, surrounded by a couple deadly 3pt guys to spread the floor and a 6-11 true center to ease his burden on the defensive end. If the guy's a facilitator, you tell him he'll get to pass to two guys who are 40%+ from three, a center who'll probably shoot 60% next year, and there's every chance the offense will run through him since Frey has looked good playing either on or off the ball. If it's a big guy, a ton of playing time in the frontcourt just opened up with Blevins and Neumann graduating. There'll still be a step back, but there was going to be one anyway with Hall graduating and the frontcourt being 2/3 seniors.

If you extend Fish and wait until next year, after Harry and Ricketts are gone too, you're basically putting the new hire in exactly the same situation Fish got hired into. At that point, you're asking a guy to come in when the cupboard is almost completely bare and rebuild by somehow convincing impact players to come in and play on a complete wasteland of a roster. I think everyone basically agreed that Fish gets a mulligan for his first year and it was a lost season regardless of who was coach. It would be best to avoid a repeat of that situation.


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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by Hawks86 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:59 pm

CelticCat wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:47 pm
What is our basketball budget compared to other conference members, does anyone know?
For 2016-2017

Weber State $1.7
UM $1.9
MSU $2.0


https://reporting.auditor.utah.gov/serv ... 00337GeAAI

https://mus.edu/data/Athletics/2017/201 ... MSU-BZ.htm


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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by John K » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:29 pm

Hawks86 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:59 pm
CelticCat wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:47 pm
What is our basketball budget compared to other conference members, does anyone know?
For 2016-2017

Weber State $1.7
UM $1.9
MSU $2.0




https://reporting.auditor.utah.gov/serv ... 00337GeAAI

https://mus.edu/data/Athletics/2017/201 ... MSU-BZ.htm
Wow! That's...interesting. So we spend slightly than both of the 2 best programs in the BSC, with virtually nothing to show for it.



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Re: Coach Fish (Does he stay or go)

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:43 pm

John K wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:29 pm
Wow! That's...interesting. So we spend slightly than both of the 2 best programs in the BSC, with virtually nothing to show for it.
I wouldn't say nothing. MSU sent our band to the Big Sky tournament. Missoula U did not. =D^



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