Lai & others leaving WBB

[Hawks86]

https://twitter.com/mappelgate206/status/861717388550656000

https://twitter.com/msubobcats/status/861717446952189954

[imacat]

I wish them all the best and thank them for their contributions to the Cats.


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[CatRowdy]

Annika came into games and saved us a few times; her contributions will be missed!
Never really got to see the potential of of Kast but I'm sure she was recruited for a reason.
Shame Ashton has to retire, she showed some great potential.

I wish them all the best.

[bobcatfan4life]

It is too bad these girls are leaving, but they have to do what is best for them.

I do have one question for some of you as fans, it seems like when men's basketball players leave (even if for personal reasons), there is a lot of criticism of the coaches for the turnover. I am just wondering if that is just because of the history with Huse having players constantly leaving or if it is something else. I do know there has been some turnover with FIsh as well, but i do feel that it has gotten better and he is just trying to get the players in that fit what he wants to do. We got better with additions like Klines, Mvuezolo, Osayande. I know his first few recruits didn't stay but that happens at a lot of schools.

I guess i was just curious on why so much criticism when a men's basketball player makes the choice to move on or leave, and when women's basketball players leave there is no questions asked. I mean i get they are better and in this case it really does seem the girls are leaving for academic and personal reasons. But that has happened with mens players as well.

I just have noticed this coming across Bobcat Nation the last couple years. If players leave, there is always going to be talk and I get that but it seems Men's Basketball gets a lot more criticism from fans when a player leaves. Any thoughts...

As for these three girls, i didnt see Kast play much so i am not sure on her. It really is too bad about Ashton having to medically retire but she has to do what is best for her. I think from what i saw, Annika had a lot of upside and was improving a lot and contributed so that could be a big loss.

[CatRowdy]

It is too bad these girls are leaving, but they have to do what is best for them.

I do have one question for some of you as fans, it seems like when men's basketball players leave (even if for personal reasons), there is a lot of criticism of the coaches for the turnover. I am just wondering if that is just because of the history with Huse having players constantly leaving or if it is something else.

For me it comes down to three things:
1. Usually I/we don't know the whole story so to start criticizing would be a mistake.
2. I don't think player commitments are as strong as they used to be, and I think they can shop other opportunities much more easily these days.
3. Tough to criticize an individual for making decisions they think are in their best interest and consequently tough to criticize coaches for failure to control their players.

I don't like losing good players for any reason, but students come here for a variety of reasons and somethings don't work out as they think they will. Coaches recruit players and sometimes they don't turn out. So changes happen; don't always like it but without the whole story why get into the blame game. There are enough inputs to judge coaches, I think player turnover could be one, but more for those on the internal side that can understand all the reasons.

[bobcatfan4life]

It is too bad these girls are leaving, but they have to do what is best for them.

I do have one question for some of you as fans, it seems like when men's basketball players leave (even if for personal reasons), there is a lot of criticism of the coaches for the turnover. I am just wondering if that is just because of the history with Huse having players constantly leaving or if it is something else.

For me it comes down to three things:
1. Usually I/we don't know the whole story so to start criticizing would be a mistake.
2. I don't think player commitments are as strong as they used to be, and I think they can shop other opportunities much more easily these days.
3. Tough to criticize an individual for making decisions they think are in their best interest and consequently tough to criticize coaches for failure to control their players.

I don't like losing good players for any reason, but students come here for a variety of reasons and somethings don't work out as they think they will. Coaches recruit players and sometimes they don't turn out. So changes happen; don't always like it but without the whole story why get into the blame game. There are enough inputs to judge coaches, I think player turnover could be one, but more for those on the internal side that can understand all the reasons.

I agree with your thoughts, i was just more curious what people thought because it did seem that every time MBB loses a player there is a lot of criticism of the coaches and why they are having turnover, but there have been a couple years where WBB has lost multiple players and there is not a lot said other than the players will be missed, which i think in both MBB and WBB the players are missed when they leave no matter the reason for leaving. And i agree that for fans we dont know what is happening internally that could lead to turnover. There will be players that leave because they dont like the coach and such, it happens. It happens at schools all over the nation. My main question was mostly just why the difference between sports. Seems there is a lot more judgement and criticism when a player leaves MBB.

[BelgradeBobcat]

i was just more curious what people thought because it did seem that every time MBB loses a player there is a lot of criticism of the coaches and why they are having turnover, but there have been a couple years where WBB has lost multiple players and there is not a lot said other than the players will be missed,

Women's team: 2 straight regular season titles, 1 conference title. Men's team: Not even close. I think that's the difference.

Losing Lai is a real bummer. We don't win the Big Sky tournament without her.

[BobcatDel]

Bummer all around. I was really looking forward to Annika stepping up and helping fill some big shoes this coming year. She has upside and could have been a strong contributor and leader in her last two years. Hope it works out well for all three.

[bobcatfan4life]

It is a bummer Lai is leaving. I really did see her being a big contributor next year and the following. She does have a lot of upside. It is hard when players leave. As mentioned, i didnt watch them a lot last year but the games I did see she was a contributor.

As for the other 2, Ashton is a great girl and really liked her but she just struggled with staying healthy so i don't blame her for medically retiring. I am sure that is always a tough decision because if you love the sport and team you want to be part of it. I didn't see Kast play much so don't know much about her.

With all this said, hopefully they can fill the spots with these new people they are bringing in and do well next year too.

As for my thoughts on the criticism for when Men's players choose to leave, I just find it interesting the criticism the coaches face when this happens. I mean there was so much criticism of Fish when he had players leave his first couple year, but look where we are now. They are getting better and he has brought in players that have bought in. It is too bad Mandrell left but he wanted to play more and the reality is likely with bringing in Bonton he may have not gotten that. You cant blame that on the coaches. Just my thought.

[desmond1957]

It is a bummer Lai is leaving. I really did see her being a big contributor next year and the following. She does have a lot of upside. It is hard when players leave. As mentioned, i didnt watch them a lot last year but the games I did see she was a contributor.

As for the other 2, Ashton is a great girl and really liked her but she just struggled with staying healthy so i don't blame her for medically retiring. I am sure that is always a tough decision because if you love the sport and team you want to be part of it. I didn't see Kast play much so don't know much about her.

With all this said, hopefully they can fill the spots with these new people they are bringing in and do well next year too.

As for my thoughts on the criticism for when Men's players choose to leave, I just find it interesting the criticism the coaches face when this happens. I mean there was so much criticism of Fish when he had players leave his first couple year, but look where we are now. They are getting better and he has brought in players that have bought in. It is too bad Mandrell left but he wanted to play more and the reality is likely with bringing in Bonton he may have not gotten that. You cant blame that on the coaches. Just my thought.

Welcome to the politically correct age of athletics!! Don't you realize that there is a "double standard"in all phases of society today? Any criticism of women coaches or their program automatically labels you as a SEXIST PIG while blasting the male coaches just shows you are a concerned fan. Records only count when they bolster administrative decisions ie. see Huse vs. his counterpart prior to John Stockton's arrival on campus, similar records Huse fired Trish huge salary increase. Nuff said.

[bobcatfan4life]

It is a bummer Lai is leaving. I really did see her being a big contributor next year and the following. She does have a lot of upside. It is hard when players leave. As mentioned, i didnt watch them a lot last year but the games I did see she was a contributor.

As for the other 2, Ashton is a great girl and really liked her but she just struggled with staying healthy so i don't blame her for medically retiring. I am sure that is always a tough decision because if you love the sport and team you want to be part of it. I didn't see Kast play much so don't know much about her.

With all this said, hopefully they can fill the spots with these new people they are bringing in and do well next year too.

As for my thoughts on the criticism for when Men's players choose to leave, I just find it interesting the criticism the coaches face when this happens. I mean there was so much criticism of Fish when he had players leave his first couple year, but look where we are now. They are getting better and he has brought in players that have bought in. It is too bad Mandrell left but he wanted to play more and the reality is likely with bringing in Bonton he may have not gotten that. You cant blame that on the coaches. Just my thought.

Welcome to the politically correct age of athletics!! Don't you realize that there is a "double standard"in all phases of society today? Any criticism of women coaches or their program automatically labels you as a SEXIST PIG while blasting the male coaches just shows you are a concerned fan. Records only count when they bolster administrative decisions ie. see Huse vs. his counterpart prior to John Stockton's arrival on campus, similar records Huse fired Trish huge salary increase. Nuff said.

Oh trust me I know there is a "double standard" between Men's and Women's sports. To me, i would say a big reason for the major criticism of our Men's team is because of the prior coach having players leave so regularly, and the lack of player development. But I look at Fish and say yes he has had players leave in his first couple of years, but what new coach doesnt have that happen. I mean look at Tubby Smith losing all those players at Memphis. It happens with new coaches all the time, even to the best. Yet, Fish lost one player this year because he didn't get playing time and i believe Mandrell knew with who was coming in the playing time may not increase. That happens too. I guess i just wanted peoples thoughts on why so much more criticism for Men's over Women's when players leave. I appreciate the conversation.

[MSU01]

Welcome to the politically correct age of athletics!! Don't you realize that there is a "double standard"in all phases of society today? Any criticism of women coaches or their program automatically labels you as a SEXIST PIG while blasting the male coaches just shows you are a concerned fan. Records only count when they bolster administrative decisions ie. see Huse vs. his counterpart prior to John Stockton's arrival on campus, similar records Huse fired Trish huge salary increase. Nuff said.

There was quite a lot of criticism of Coach Binford around here prior to the championships MSU has won the past two years and multiple people questioned her continued employment as MSU's head coach, mainly due to a lack of progression as MSU would finish between 4th and 6th seemingly every year and never won a championship. I certainly don't recall anyone being labeled a sexist pig for doing so. Huse was 107-134 overall at MSU and 64-72 in conference play, while even before the 2015-16 season Binford was 148-148 overall and 89-79 in conference play, a pretty clear advantage for Binford over Huse even before Binford starting winning championships.

The simple reason there would be more talk about the men's program is easy - more people pay attention to men's basketball than to women's basketball. Look no further than attendances to verify this, as even when the MSU women have had far stronger teams the men's team always outdraws them substantially. The hierarchy is football > men's BB > women's BB > women's VB > everything else, and the amount of discussion and criticism will follow the exact same hierarchy.

[bobcatfan4life]

Welcome to the politically correct age of athletics!! Don't you realize that there is a "double standard"in all phases of society today? Any criticism of women coaches or their program automatically labels you as a SEXIST PIG while blasting the male coaches just shows you are a concerned fan. Records only count when they bolster administrative decisions ie. see Huse vs. his counterpart prior to John Stockton's arrival on campus, similar records Huse fired Trish huge salary increase. Nuff said.

There was quite a lot of criticism of Coach Binford around here prior to the championships MSU has won the past two years and multiple people questioned her continued employment as MSU's head coach, mainly due to a lack of progression as MSU would finish between 4th and 6th seemingly every year and never won a championship. I certainly don't recall anyone being labeled a sexist pig for doing so. Huse was 107-134 overall at MSU and 64-72 in conference play, while even before the 2015-16 season Binford was 148-148 overall and 89-79 in conference play, a pretty clear advantage for Binford over Huse even before Binford starting winning championships.

The simple reason there would be more talk about the men's program is easy - more people pay attention to men's basketball than to women's basketball. Look no further than attendances to verify this, as even when the MSU women have had far stronger teams the men's team always outdraws them substantially. The hierarchy is football > men's BB > women's BB > women's VB > everything else, and the amount of discussion and criticism will follow the exact same hierarchy.

I do remember as well the criticism on this board for Coach Binford as well prior to the last couple of years. I dont know that anyone was ever labeled a sexist pig, but do see the double standard within sports not just at MSU either. With that said, Huse was here way to long which I do understand is a big reason as to why the Men's program was criticized as much as it was. They had one maybe two good seasons under him, and i must say the player development wasn't the best under him and they regularly had players leave. I guess i would just think people would be a little more understanding of fact that Fish is working to build a program, hence why some players have been let go, and I do know some left for personal reasons as well. I appreciate the discussion because I for one like to see where both programs are headed and don't like to see players leave but it happens all over.

[mslacat]

I was real disappointed to hear of both Lia and Kast's departure from the program. Lia was one of my favorite players and I thought she had the potential to be all big sky next year. Kast has been a player I really wanted to see on the court at 6-1 she could spot up and hit a three or post up and power it in under neither, but most of all she was regarded as a relentless rebounder who had a knack for know how the ball would bounce, and those type of players have always been my favorite to watch play. Bu alas it will not be. I have heard by two sources that getting closer to home maybe a factor their field of study is what influenced there decision. Both wanted to pursue specific degree options (especially Lia) that were not available in @ Montana State.

Now about the ****** that has been flowing through this thread. Up until real recently the transfer/underclass man quitting rate among women's D-1 teams/players has been significantly higher nation wide than the men's. Over the past 5 or so years the men transfer rate has exploded. Compared to 10 year ago the rate in men's programs is 3 times what it was, and each year it sets a new record. The Womens rate has also been climbing but nothing like what happens with the men. Talking with former and current coaches over the years,in the women's games you will find player who are just willing to give up basketball in general at a much higher rate than the men's. Some just get tired of the grind, some want a social life, and over my 37yrs I have even seen player willing to give it up so they can follow their sweety across the country. Some though are willing/choose to give up what they have at this program to chase after the degree they want. When you talk to coaches in the women's game they will tell you one of the most important aspects of recruiting the women's game is to set up on your campus the correct social/family atmosphere from with in the program. It is said to be the most important factor in landing new recruits but also in keeping recruits. These factors are important in the men's game but not to the same degree. At the end of every year for both the men's and women's game we tend to lose a player or two, but in the case of the men we almost always know who those players are most likely going to be. This year if we lost a player, Mandrell Worthy seemed to be the guy, just look at the stat line told he did not get many minutes, points. Year before and kind of thing only we knew who was also in Fish's dog house. No surprises. The women's game kind of the same thing when you down the stat line but you get more big surprises like Lia every so often Personally I just think the women (not all but some) hold basketball in a little different perspective than their male counter parts. It is not the one diving force in their lives. It is just one of many.

Now about the men not being treated as nicely as the women. Just a few year back I have been critical of Binford when it seemed like she was coasting and just could not get over the 2-3 place finish line. I have also been critical of Fish recently, and before him Huse and even before him I actually raised a ruckus about Durham. I am a Bobcat basketball fanatic but I also believe more in the program than any one coach. So am I critical equally when the women's team lose player for what ever reason and the Men lose players. On a individual bases I like to think look at each case. I don't like to player recruited one year only to be either cut or run out of the program the next. I can not recall this ever happening under Binford. In general if I saw a program lose 2-3 underclassmen over an extended period (lets say 2-3yrs) yeah, I am not going to be happy, I don't care what the reasons are that would be a loss of talent resources and it tend to tell me something some where is wrong with the program, regardless of men's or women's. Yes I was/am pretty cranky with Fish when we lost almost every JC player he recruited his first 2-3 year. Yep, but the proof is in the pudding. last week the MSU APR results were released. Basically the APR rates do athletes graduate from the program and do they stay in the program. The way MSU currently work (because of the APR) is if you are given a scholarship they will assure you a scholarship to finish your degree. Examples former MSU basketball player Ryan Shannon was cut by both Huse and Fish, but I am told he was given scholarship (if that's what it is called) to finish up his degree. Like Jamie Stewart I know has been taking trips back to Bozeman to finish his degree between pro gigs oversea. I say this because when you look at men's basketball they had the schools lowest three year APR for this year at about 936 the women had the highest APR at about 997 (including two perfect 1000 years). So if you were to ask me I would that over the past 3 year 2012-2016 the Binfords program has done a better job of retaining underclassmen and graduating players.

[bobcatfan4life]

I was real disappointed to hear of both Lia and Kast's departure from the program. Lia was one of my favorite players and I thought she had the potential to be all big sky next year. Kast has been a player I really wanted to see on the court at 6-1 she could spot up and hit a three or post up and power it in under neither, but most of all she was regarded as a relentless rebounder who had a knack for know how the ball would bounce, and those type of players have always been my favorite to watch play. Bu alas it will not be. I have heard by two sources that getting closer to home maybe a factor their field of study is what influenced there decision. Both wanted to pursue specific degree options (especially Lia) that were not available in @ Montana State.

Now about the ****** that has been flowing through this thread. Up until real recently the transfer/underclass man quitting rate among women's D-1 teams/players has been significantly higher nation wide than the men's. Over the past 5 or so years the men transfer rate has exploded. Compared to 10 year ago the rate in men's programs is 3 times what it was, and each year it sets a new record. The Womens rate has also been climbing but nothing like what happens with the men. Talking with former and current coaches over the years,in the women's games you will find player who are just willing to give up basketball in general at a much higher rate than the men's. Some just get tired of the grind, some want a social life, and over my 37yrs I have even seen player willing to give it up so they can follow their sweety across the country. Some though are willing/choose to give up what they have at this program to chase after the degree they want. When you talk to coaches in the women's game they will tell you one of the most important aspects of recruiting the women's game is to set up on your campus the correct social/family atmosphere from with in the program. It is said to be the most important factor in landing new recruits but also in keeping recruits. These factors are important in the men's game but not to the same degree. At the end of every year for both the men's and women's game we tend to lose a player or two, but in the case of the men we almost always know who those players are most likely going to be. This year if we lost a player, Mandrell Worthy seemed to be the guy, just look at the stat line told he did not get many minutes, points. Year before and kind of thing only we knew who was also in Fish's dog house. No surprises. The women's game kind of the same thing when you down the stat line but you get more big surprises like Lia every so often Personally I just think the women (not all but some) hold basketball in a little different perspective than their male counter parts. It is not the one diving force in their lives. It is just one of many.

Now about the men not being treated as nicely as the women. Just a few year back I have been critical of Binford when it seemed like she was coasting and just could not get over the 2-3 place finish line. I have also been critical of Fish recently, and before him Huse and even before him I actually raised a ruckus about Durham. I am a Bobcat basketball fanatic but I also believe more in the program than any one coach. So am I critical equally when the women's team lose player for what ever reason and the Men lose players. On a individual bases I like to think look at each case. I don't like to player recruited one year only to be either cut or run out of the program the next. I can not recall this ever happening under Binford. In general if I saw a program lose 2-3 underclassmen over an extended period (lets say 2-3yrs) yeah, I am not going to be happy, I don't care what the reasons are that would be a loss of talent resources and it tend to tell me something some where is wrong with the program, regardless of men's or women's. Yes I was/am pretty cranky with Fish when we lost almost every JC player he recruited his first 2-3 year. Yep, but the proof is in the pudding. last week the MSU APR results were released. Basically the APR rates do athletes graduate from the program and do they stay in the program. The way MSU currently work (because of the APR) is if you are given a scholarship they will assure you a scholarship to finish your degree. Examples former MSU basketball player Ryan Shannon was cut by both Huse and Fish, but I am told he was given scholarship (if that's what it is called) to finish up his degree. Like Jamie Stewart I know has been taking trips back to Bozeman to finish his degree between pro gigs oversea. I say this because when you look at men's basketball they had the schools lowest three year APR for this year at about 936 the women had the highest APR at about 997 (including two perfect 1000 years). So if you were to ask me I would that over the past 3 year 2012-2016 the Binfords program has done a better job of retaining underclassmen and graduating players.

First, why is what is being said on this thread ****? I only even asked because i know last year and the year before when Fish lost a couple of players this board went crazy and was hypercritical of him. Yet, I not only follow this program closely but truly follow college basketball closely and will say that losing players happens at every single school at every level. Yes, it isnt ideal that in his first couple years, the JC players he brought in didn't work out how he wanted, but it happens. And, i do know this for the women's team lately there hasn't been as many players leaving, there is no doubt about that. And I also will say I completely understand this situation with Lai and Kast leaving for reasons of what they want to do in school may not be offered here or wanting to be closer to home I get it. And as mentioned in the original post, i know Ashton and she just couldn't stay healthy.

I also see the APR and notice the men clearly are the lowest. It happens that maybe the players Fish thought would be good for this program weren't the right fit, and some left for personal reasons and weren't happy with the situation. It happens. Yes, I would agree Binford program has done a better job of retaining players, there is no doubt and I wasn't disagreeing with that. Even knowing from the beginning of this thread, it really was just a question of being curious. And really i completely understand why people would be maybe more critical of the Men's coaches in recent years. When you see consistent turnover, you begin to wonder why and what the coach is doing. But it seems FIsh has things going in the right direction now. Yes one player left this year, but he has kept everyone else and is bringing in some great talent next year. I think more often than not the first couple years of a new coach there is turnover because maybe the players don't like what they thought they did or after being with the program realize they want something different. It happens even in the big name programs.

I just asked the question because i was more curious. I didn't see it as a bad question and I myself was honestly really unsure of the program the last couple years under Huse. I understood under Fish the first year or so there may be some turnover because players may not like Fish or players he recruited may not work out. But he seems to have things going in the right direction now.

[Ilikecats]

I don't get it. Binford wins the Big Sky the year after Coach Stockton leaves and with 3 new starters and gets no credit? I thought she did a tremendous job last year, but if you read this board it's almost like they came in last. Why do we struggle with success?

Players come and players go, but it's obvious that she's built a program that looks like it can compete for years to come. Should she get a break that she's having players leave the program? Of course she should if you're aware of the caliber of players coming to Bozeman. They just won a championship....... doesn't that earn you some respect?

The game against Washington got the program a lot of positive press. Top players from Minnesota, Colorado and yes Montana have to seriously consider playing for Montana State. What's wrong with that picture ?

The women's team is coming off of a program changing season........ Binford has earned her stripes. Don't ask fans to compare programs until the Men actually win a title! Hopefully that's in the very near future.

[bobcatfan4life]

I just wanted to clarify that my question was more general than specifically trying to take away from any success the Women's Team or Coach Binford has h ad this year or the last couple of years. I as a diehard Bobcat fan, and have been for life, couldn't be more thrilled for the team, and the coaches for the success they are experiencing right now. And I also am not going to be critical of the team when these three girls leave because yes they have experienced much success the last few years and haven't had much turnover at all, and are bringing in a lot of talent it seems. And I do agree that these 3 players leaving doesn't deserve criticism, it is just disappointing to see them go. Lai was already a contributor and as mentioned by a couple others had potential to be a huge contributor and Big Sky success, but both her and Kast clearly were leaving for academic and personal reasons and that I understand. And i will say i personally knew Ashton and she loves basketball but having suffered from many injuries i am sure that decision to retire was difficult.

My question was general in nature just wanting to see fans thoughts on why there is the difference when a player leaves one sport over the other. That is all this was meant to be in no way do i want to take away from any success of the womens team...also will say the Men's team is on the upswing as well! I like to see success of programs.

[imacat]

Binford's teams have been academically stellar for a long time. It is one of the things I really appreciate about her. Thank you Coach Binford.


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[bobcatfan4life]

I agree her teams have been academically stellar and that is how it should be. Academics should come first and being a student athlete no matter the sport is difficult but those girls seem to do well academically.

[mslacat]

Fish's APR is pretty low, but that happens every time someone takes over a new program. When Huse took over he had to get rid of quite a few bad apples and the result was our APR drooped like a rock. In Huse's third year (or maybe forth) MSU was put on APR probation because our three year average was so low (remember Durham's last year when we had a player transfer to the state prison for murder). That when fields and Huse started a program where MSU would aggressively help student athletes get their degree, even if they were not on the team any more. Still you get a new coach, you find a few players do not fit, don't want to fit or for what ever reason players leave when coaches are changes. some right away some the following year. I am not shocked Fish has one of the lowest 3yr APR after his first three years. I feel pretty confident now he has his guys and he is committed to the academic side of the equation. So just like Huse watch his APR take off after his 3rd year. I am also pretty happy to see Fish stay away from JC players in his latest recruiting efforts. For what ever reason they do not seem to do well in his program, and instead he is looking more towards Europe to find players who can contribute early. Now if he could only recruit a true big man that he actually likes once they get on campus I would feel a lot better.

Binford, she took a step up program wise a couple years ago after we seemed stuck as a middle of the pack team. With the players we now have in the program and those coming in and those committed to join the program things look pretty bright. We are going to lose a layer every so often like a Lia but we have great players in the wings ready to take he place. The 15 scholarships the women get (men only 13) really helps us bounce back from an unexpected loss.