Swimming in linebacker depth

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iaafan
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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by iaafan » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:37 am

In this day and age it isn’t about starting. It’s about being in the rotation. The only spots where there’s not a rotation is QB and OL.



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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by VimSince03 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:47 am

iaafan wrote:In this day and age it isn’t about starting. It’s about being in the rotation. The only spots where there’s not a rotation is QB and OL.
And hell...sometimes there's a rotation at those positions too!


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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by ilovethecats » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:53 am

VimSince03 wrote:
iaafan wrote:In this day and age it isn’t about starting. It’s about being in the rotation. The only spots where there’s not a rotation is QB and OL.
And hell...sometimes there's a rotation at those positions too!
vim, sorry if it's been discussed but do we have a potentially great pass rusher in your eyes right now? maybe someone who will surprise? I feel that would put our stout defense over the top this year. just curious. I've been out of the loop. :oops:



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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by Montanabob » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:03 am

iaafan wrote:In this day and age it isn’t about starting. It’s about being in the rotation. The only spots where there’s not a rotation is QB and OL.
Disagree about the OL. Always moving people around due to injuries and needing a break. We need the two deep and versatility because the STEP UP really is needed there. I think we have done that well over the last decade....


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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by VimSince03 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:04 am

ilovethecats wrote:
VimSince03 wrote:
iaafan wrote:In this day and age it isn’t about starting. It’s about being in the rotation. The only spots where there’s not a rotation is QB and OL.
And hell...sometimes there's a rotation at those positions too!
vim, sorry if it's been discussed but do we have a potentially great pass rusher in your eyes right now? maybe someone who will surprise? I feel that would put our stout defense over the top this year. just curious. I've been out of the loop. :oops:
Here are the candidates:

Pure DEs: Tyrone Fa'anono, Derek Marks, Marcus Ferriter
Buck: Bryce Sterk, Jacob Hadley, Michael Jobman, Kyle Finch, Chad Kanow

Tyrone is the lone senior.
Marks, Ferriter, & Sterk are all juniors.
Hadley, Jobman, Finch, and Kanow are all sophomores.

This group is talented so something has to give this fall. Grant Collins isn't included because he is going to be out a while (I've heard he won't be back to full health until midseason). Maybe he could get a medical redshirt? Anyway, I was disappointed we couldn't land a high school recruit this year to develop as a pass-rusher (Pierce DeVaughn got scooped up by UConn 4 days prior to signing day...damnit). But the coaching staff is going to offer a boatload of DE/OLB types for next year's recruiting class so I'm not too concerned. It wasn't a glaring need because of the depth we have above. But after this next season is over, we need to start re-stocking the inventory.


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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by VimSince03 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:07 am

Montanabob wrote:
iaafan wrote:In this day and age it isn’t about starting. It’s about being in the rotation. The only spots where there’s not a rotation is QB and OL.
Disagree about the OL. Always moving people around due to injuries and needing a break. We need the two deep and versatility because the STEP UP really is needed there. I think we have done that well over the last decade....
I think what iaafan meant was it isn't ideal to have a rotation of OL in-game because that group needs to be tight-knit with no breakdowns in communication. Of course it is of utmost importance to have rock solid depth on the OL.


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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by catatac » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:46 am

Is this shaping up to potentially be one hell of a defense or what? I absolutely don't see how linebacker could be a weak spot for us in 2018 despite what gtapp posted. Add in the proven commodities everywhere else along with quality depth and I honestly can't remember the last time we had a lineup that looked this good. PLUS we have TG to run it all. I am super pumped to see what this defense does in 2018. :D


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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by 91catAlum » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:06 am

catatac wrote:Is this shaping up to potentially be one hell of a defense or what? I absolutely don't see how linebacker could be a weak spot for us in 2018 despite what gtapp posted. Add in the proven commodities everywhere else along with quality depth and I honestly can't remember the last time we had a lineup that looked this good. PLUS we have TG to run it all. I am super pumped to see what this defense does in 2018. :D
I agree, it's looking good. As long as Sterk and Hadley can generate some QB pressure, it'll be a very good defense.


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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by RobertCats » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:20 pm

BleedingBLue wrote:
The MICKSTER wrote:What makes it so difficult as you alluded to is we don’t even know what group of players we have to select from. Is Collins in the mix? Is Konkel in the mix? At 6’5” & 220 lbs could Hadley be a DE? At 6’3” & 205lbs could Kanow be a LB?

Assuming the seven you have listed are the group to select from, and based on the coaches statements of “we’ll try and get our best 11 players on the field”, I’d say the starting linebackers would be; Anderson, Hadley, and Hill.

What a great problem to have.
Judging from the picture of Hadley in the DL shakeup thread, I don't think he's going to be a LB. Buck seems most likely for him now.
Hadley could be a game changer at Buck End. :shock: :shock: That picture of him is insane, especially pairing that with how good of an athlete he is. Remember this from his Senior year in basketball?!
https://twitter.com/brookhadley24/status/698368406303604736



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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by BleedingBLue » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:51 pm

RobertCats wrote:
BleedingBLue wrote:
The MICKSTER wrote:What makes it so difficult as you alluded to is we don’t even know what group of players we have to select from. Is Collins in the mix? Is Konkel in the mix? At 6’5” & 220 lbs could Hadley be a DE? At 6’3” & 205lbs could Kanow be a LB?

Assuming the seven you have listed are the group to select from, and based on the coaches statements of “we’ll try and get our best 11 players on the field”, I’d say the starting linebackers would be; Anderson, Hadley, and Hill.

What a great problem to have.
Judging from the picture of Hadley in the DL shakeup thread, I don't think he's going to be a LB. Buck seems most likely for him now.
Hadley could be a game changer at Buck End. :shock: :shock: That picture of him is insane, especially pairing that with how good of an athlete he is. Remember this from his Senior year in basketball?!
https://twitter.com/brookhadley24/status/698368406303604736
Yeah he is a hell of an athlete. I wonder what his speed is like at that size. It's possible he could still play LB if he stays about the size he is now and has some speed, but I don't see it. If I'm not mistaken he's about the same weight that Dane Fletcher was his senior year, and 3 inches taller.



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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by 1984TwoMinutesHate » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:17 am

VimSince03 wrote:
1984TwoMinutesHate wrote:Welp, so Choate said he's moving Jobman to Mike this Spring ... And Konkol is staying at Will.

This seems to indicate our D Line depth is in really good shape, more than anything. Despite the need for a true pass rusher still.

But I guess I'm not really following the plan here. So we're going to put two of our top defensive players together at Will to battle for the position (Konkol & Hill)?

Does this mean Andersen will be tried at Sam? I'm not sure he has the bulk for Sam, but he is a heck of an athlete. Or will Andersen be tried at SS? I would've guessed SS is a more natural position for him, but that's a position that requires sound instincts & heavy experience ideally. Not sure we wouldn't be better off keeping Andersen on O if this is the case.
The best way to look at this is not get locked in to putting a guy at any certain linebacker spot. All of them are versatile and smart so that is a plus for Gregorak. Jobman is getting reps at Mike this spring but that doesn't mean he is remaining there OR becoming the starting Mike linebacker. Josh is going to get limited reps this spring as he is the presumed starter at Mike.

Troy doesn't have enough bulk for Sam?! Mac Bignell was the Sam linebacker at an All-Big Sky level playing at 205-220. Troy is already up around 220-225. Earlier you said Grant Collins is a good fit at Sam and I think the exact opposite. Usually Sams are a lighter linebacker because they have to be good in coverage as well as sound in their run fits. Cole Moore was a good example of a solid Sam linebacker. .
That is incorrect. Cole Moore started at Will for an entire season.

Mac Bignell played at around 215 at Sam, BUT WAS STRONG AF! Bignell was literally the strongest pound-for-pound player in the Big Sky last season. A special player who shall live forever in Bobcat Valhalla.

In general, Wills are typically your cover LBs. Sams do need to be able to cover TEs well, so they are typically taller & rangier. Sams are typically better pure run stoppers as well, hence the comment on bulk.

Collins weighs a good 240, likely about 250 now. I don't believe Andersen tipped that scales much over 200 at the end of last season. Andersen has probably bulked up some now, but the question is would he best be utilized at the Sam position? I trust TG, so I'm all in on however we roll. I'm just trying to understand the philosophy.



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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by 1984TwoMinutesHate » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:17 am

VimSince03 wrote:
1984TwoMinutesHate wrote:Welp, so Choate said he's moving Jobman to Mike this Spring ... And Konkol is staying at Will.

This seems to indicate our D Line depth is in really good shape, more than anything. Despite the need for a true pass rusher still.

But I guess I'm not really following the plan here. So we're going to put two of our top defensive players together at Will to battle for the position (Konkol & Hill)?

Does this mean Andersen will be tried at Sam? I'm not sure he has the bulk for Sam, but he is a heck of an athlete. Or will Andersen be tried at SS? I would've guessed SS is a more natural position for him, but that's a position that requires sound instincts & heavy experience ideally. Not sure we wouldn't be better off keeping Andersen on O if this is the case.
The best way to look at this is not get locked in to putting a guy at any certain linebacker spot. All of them are versatile and smart so that is a plus for Gregorak. Jobman is getting reps at Mike this spring but that doesn't mean he is remaining there OR becoming the starting Mike linebacker. Josh is going to get limited reps this spring as he is the presumed starter at Mike.

Troy doesn't have enough bulk for Sam?! Mac Bignell was the Sam linebacker at an All-Big Sky level playing at 205-220. Troy is already up around 220-225. Earlier you said Grant Collins is a good fit at Sam and I think the exact opposite. Usually Sams are a lighter linebacker because they have to be good in coverage as well as sound in their run fits. Cole Moore was a good example of a solid Sam linebacker. .
That is incorrect. Cole Moore started at Will for an entire season.

Mac Bignell played at around 215 at Sam, BUT WAS STRONG AF! Bignell was literally the strongest pound-for-pound player in the Big Sky last season. A special player who shall live forever in Bobcat Valhalla.

In general, Wills are typically your cover LBs. Sams do need to be able to cover TEs well, so they are typically taller & rangier. Sams are typically better pure run stoppers as well, hence the comment on bulk.

Collins weighs a good 240, likely about 250 now. I don't believe Andersen tipped that scales much over 200 at the end of last season. Andersen has probably bulked up some now, but the question is would he best be utilized at the Sam position? I trust TG, so I'm all in on however we roll. I'm just trying to understand the philosophy.



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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by six--man » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:57 am

The backups to Hill and Konkol who are proven are injury questions = like Grant Collins and Jacob Hadley. Collins was a Buck End last year
Chapman had a shoulder too #30, 46, 57 can play What if thy get so many RB's that Troy Anderson becomes a true LB?



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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by VimSince03 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:27 pm

1984TwoMinutesHate wrote:
VimSince03 wrote:
1984TwoMinutesHate wrote:Welp, so Choate said he's moving Jobman to Mike this Spring ... And Konkol is staying at Will.

This seems to indicate our D Line depth is in really good shape, more than anything. Despite the need for a true pass rusher still.

But I guess I'm not really following the plan here. So we're going to put two of our top defensive players together at Will to battle for the position (Konkol & Hill)?

Does this mean Andersen will be tried at Sam? I'm not sure he has the bulk for Sam, but he is a heck of an athlete. Or will Andersen be tried at SS? I would've guessed SS is a more natural position for him, but that's a position that requires sound instincts & heavy experience ideally. Not sure we wouldn't be better off keeping Andersen on O if this is the case.
The best way to look at this is not get locked in to putting a guy at any certain linebacker spot. All of them are versatile and smart so that is a plus for Gregorak. Jobman is getting reps at Mike this spring but that doesn't mean he is remaining there OR becoming the starting Mike linebacker. Josh is going to get limited reps this spring as he is the presumed starter at Mike.

Troy doesn't have enough bulk for Sam?! Mac Bignell was the Sam linebacker at an All-Big Sky level playing at 205-220. Troy is already up around 220-225. Earlier you said Grant Collins is a good fit at Sam and I think the exact opposite. Usually Sams are a lighter linebacker because they have to be good in coverage as well as sound in their run fits. Cole Moore was a good example of a solid Sam linebacker.
That is incorrect. Cole Moore started at Will for an entire season.

Cole started at SAM linebacker from 2012-2014. In 2012, it went Jody Owens (Will), Na'a Moeakiola (Mike), and Cole Moore (Sam). In 2013, it went Alex Singleton (Will), Mike Foster (Mike), and Cole Moore (Sam). In 2014, it went Singleton (Will), Na'a (Mike), and Moore (Sam). Also, here is a direct quote from this article: http://msubobcats.com/news/2014/6/11/FB_0611144222.aspx.
Bobcat fans used to Moore's hard-nosed, technique-sound work as a Sam linebacker would have had a hard time spotting him at Hunterdon Central High School or Lake Forest Prep, though, because they'd likely be looking on the wrong side of the football. Moore was a quarterback before arriving at Montana State.
Mac Bignell played at around 215 at Sam, BUT WAS STRONG AF! Bignell was literally the strongest pound-for-pound player in the Big Sky last season. A special player who shall live forever in Bobcat Valhalla.

I agree but he did not start at 215. His sophomore season, he played Sam at about 195-200 lbs. and his raw strength & instincts helped him overcome size.

In general, Wills are typically your cover LBs. Sams do need to be able to cover TEs well, so they are typically taller & rangier. Sams are typically better pure run stoppers as well, hence the comment on bulk.

I agree with this. However, it isn't a "one size fits all" approach on who is the cover linebacker vs. who is the run-stopper. For example, during the Ash era, Cole Moore was the Sam linebacker and his main responsibility was to cover the slot or tight end. Jody Owens and Alex Singleton played the Will linebacker position and the defense was designed to flow runs to the weakside (Will) linebacker, hence why Owens and Singleton made so many tackles. Now in the Choate era, we run more of a 3-4 defense with a Buck linebacker who's main job is to rush the passer/stop the run while still having some pass coverage duties. Konkol (last year's Will) dropped back into coverage much more than Bignell did based off scheme and formation.

Collins weighs a good 240, likely about 250 now. I don't believe Andersen tipped that scales much over 200 at the end of last season. Andersen has probably bulked up some now, but the question is would he best be utilized at the Sam position? I trust TG, so I'm all in on however we roll. I'm just trying to understand the philosophy.

Troy Andersen played at 215-220 lbs. last year. That isn't conjecture or rumor. That is a fact. But I agree that I'm wondering about the philosphy because prior to Hadley getting hurt last year during the spring, Mac was going to be the Will, Josh Hill the Mike, and Hadley or Balue Chapman as the Sam. Hadley and Balue couldn't be more far apart in terms of body type as linebackers yet they both competed for the Sam.


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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by VimSince03 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:35 pm

six--man wrote:The backups to Hill and Konkol who are proven are injury questions = like Grant Collins and Jacob Hadley. Collins was a Buck End last year
Chapman had a shoulder too #30, 46, 57 can play What if thy get so many RB's that Troy Anderson becomes a true LB?
The backups to Hill and Konkol are not Grant Collins or Jacob Hadley. When both healthy, Collins was the starting Buck and Hill the starting Mike last year. Hill's backup was Walker Cozzie at the Mike while and Collins was a rotation of Jobman/Fa'anono. Now when Hill went down, Collins slid back to Mike because we had enough depth at the Buck and Grant had experience in the middle.

If I had to take a guess what the two deep will look like this fall at all four LB spots, here it is:

Will - Konkol (starter), Kanow or Cozzie (backups)
Mike - Hill (starter), Opland or Jobman (backups)
Sam - Andersen (starter), Chapman or Gilman (backups)
Buck - Sterk (starter), Hadley, Finch, or Jobman (backups)

Others in play: Sal Aguilar (Sam or Will), Callahan O'Reilly (Mike)


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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by bobcat99 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:59 pm

Point blank, Grant Collins is too slow to play LB at this point. This isn't the 1980's smash mouth football, ok? Collins is an ok pass rusher who sets the edge well against the run. Even at Mike he was a liability in coverage...at Sam he would be targeted frequently.

In this day and age, Troy is an ideal Sam. He can get up to 235 in time, and be strong in pass coverage as well as against the run. Some things you just shouldn't overthink.



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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by VimSince03 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:14 pm

bobcat99 wrote:Point blank, Grant Collins is too slow to play LB at this point. This isn't the 1980's smash mouth football, ok? Collins is an ok pass rusher who sets the edge well against the run. Even at Mike he was a liability in coverage...at Sam he would be targeted frequently.

In this day and age, Troy is an ideal Sam. He can get up to 235 in time, and be strong in pass coverage as well as against the run. Some things you just shouldn't overthink.
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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by Marana CAT » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:11 am

bobcat99 wrote:Point blank, Grant Collins is too slow to play LB at this point. This isn't the 1980's smash mouth football, ok? Collins is an ok pass rusher who sets the edge well against the run. Even at Mike he was a liability in coverage...at Sam he would be targeted frequently.

In this day and age, Troy is an ideal Sam. He can get up to 235 in time, and be strong in pass coverage as well as against the run. Some things you just shouldn't overthink.
Be very careful what you say about Grant Collins. I mentioned the same thing back in the Fall and almost
got tarred and feathered for it. I agree Grant gives the Cats the best chance to win coming off the edge and not
holding down the middle in the BSC. Maybe if the Cats were in the MVC I would be thinking differently.


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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by 1984TwoMinutesHate » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:54 am

bobcat99 wrote: In this day and age, Troy is an ideal Sam. He can get up to 235 in time, and be strong in pass coverage as well as against the run. Some things you just shouldn't overthink.
Bold statement. Can't say I agree with it though at this point.

Andersen has elite speed. I would venture to guess he's one of the top 3 fastest players on the roster in the 40. Typically athletes like this are featured in the Secondary, RB or WR. Just because he has the ideal size to play LB doesn't mean he should. I guess one could argue in a 3-4 scheme that the Sam is more of an edge player, I dunno.

What does seem clear is that the Sam position is pretty important in our D scheme & that TG is wanting to replace Bignell with our best pure football player in Andersen.

Again, in TG We Trust.



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Re: Swimming in linebacker depth

Post by six--man » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:23 am

I forgot about Kanow #54 in a previous post. He is one of those guys who is always on top of it. McLeery#51 and Cozzie #43 played special teams last year so they have skills. Yeah we're deep at LB



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