Is that how we want to play the game? Let's gamble unnecessarily now, so our guys have less pressure in them later. Nologgy wrote:Removes any pressure on making an extra point to possibly tie later on. Also, I think we didn't want to go to overtime. Win or lose in regulation. Would have been setup to win with a FG rather than tie.
Chris Murray
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- BleedingBLue
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Re: Chris Murray
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Re: Chris Murray
I agree about the wind just being an excuse, although I do think you are going a little overboard with the receiving stats. When was the last time we had 2, 1,000 yard receivers in the same season?GoCats18 wrote:I think it is stupid to blame not passing the ball on the wind. PSU passed for 300+ and EWU 225 against us in the wind. We have three receivers that if Gubrud was throwing to he would be throwing over 500 yards every game. I think Murray has come a long way, does some amazing things, but I wonder how far he can carry us. This offense is not working. I thought Messingham was pretty bad at play calling, I am starting to have those same feelings. I get that the run is working for us, but that should only help the passing game. As I have said before, how do you go recruit receivers or keep the really good ones you have if all they do is block for running backs all game. Talent is being wasted and that sucks to see. Herbert should have easily had over 1000 yards this season, Kassis should be over 1000 yards each season. Like I said, there is a lot of great things about Murray, but we need to have a passing game that we can count on to win games when needed.
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Re: Chris Murray
Maybe has never happened, in fact. People in general aren't getting that a version of this formula is the way Jeff Choate wants to play football. When you get to a more pocket type passer like rovig, the shot plays will be off play action from under center, but it's still going to be a rush heavy offense with a downfield passing game. It's all there, from his introductory press conference on. I think it can work, and work well in time, but whether it's Murray or rovig or whomever, I wouldn't suddenly expect us to morph into a fast pass, quick slant, rhythm passing team.BleedingBLue wrote:I agree about the wind just being an excuse, although I do think you are going a little overboard with the receiving stats. When was the last time we had 2, 1,000 yard receivers in the same season?GoCats18 wrote:I think it is stupid to blame not passing the ball on the wind. PSU passed for 300+ and EWU 225 against us in the wind. We have three receivers that if Gubrud was throwing to he would be throwing over 500 yards every game. I think Murray has come a long way, does some amazing things, but I wonder how far he can carry us. This offense is not working. I thought Messingham was pretty bad at play calling, I am starting to have those same feelings. I get that the run is working for us, but that should only help the passing game. As I have said before, how do you go recruit receivers or keep the really good ones you have if all they do is block for running backs all game. Talent is being wasted and that sucks to see. Herbert should have easily had over 1000 yards this season, Kassis should be over 1000 yards each season. Like I said, there is a lot of great things about Murray, but we need to have a passing game that we can count on to win games when needed.
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Re: Chris Murray
You're right about his offensive style, but even run heavy teams have short passing games too. Slants, screens and options routes in the middle of the field should be part of every offense. Even the teams who are successful running, and occasionally passing, a la NDSU, don't always take deep shots on play action. 15 yard ins and posts are wide open a lot with good play action.GoldstoneCat wrote:Maybe has never happened, in fact. People in general aren't getting that a version of this formula is the way Jeff Choate wants to play football. When you get to a more pocket type passer like rovig, the shot plays will be off play action from under center, but it's still going to be a rush heavy offense with a downfield passing game. It's all there, from his introductory press conference on. I think it can work, and work well in time, but whether it's Murray or rovig or whomever, I wouldn't suddenly expect us to morph into a fast pass, quick slant, rhythm passing team.BleedingBLue wrote:I agree about the wind just being an excuse, although I do think you are going a little overboard with the receiving stats. When was the last time we had 2, 1,000 yard receivers in the same season?GoCats18 wrote:I think it is stupid to blame not passing the ball on the wind. PSU passed for 300+ and EWU 225 against us in the wind. We have three receivers that if Gubrud was throwing to he would be throwing over 500 yards every game. I think Murray has come a long way, does some amazing things, but I wonder how far he can carry us. This offense is not working. I thought Messingham was pretty bad at play calling, I am starting to have those same feelings. I get that the run is working for us, but that should only help the passing game. As I have said before, how do you go recruit receivers or keep the really good ones you have if all they do is block for running backs all game. Talent is being wasted and that sucks to see. Herbert should have easily had over 1000 yards this season, Kassis should be over 1000 yards each season. Like I said, there is a lot of great things about Murray, but we need to have a passing game that we can count on to win games when needed.
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Re: Chris Murray
EWU defense was in a single high safety (10-12 yards off the ball) a lot during the game. Even on third and long. We have to be able to take advantage of that. I'm not bashing any players or coaches , but they basically dared us to try and throw and we couldn't do it consistently. It will continue to be difficult to beat quality teams if there isn't at least the threat of a passing game. Not sure what the answer is (I'm not a coach) but unless the passing game changes ( consistently ) I think something will have to change next season. Stay the course for the rest of the season (red shirt Rovig), then start building the offense the way Choate wants it to be. I give the coaches a lot of credit for adapting to what they have on the roster, but at what point do you have to say, hey, we need to start developing players to run the offense that we really want?
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Re: Chris Murray
FWIW, Messingham is running the #1 scoring offense in all of FCS football right now. Messingham's O is ahead of EWU in total offense. I'm pretty sure that the offensive struggles aren't due to the coaching.GoCats18 wrote:I think it is stupid to blame not passing the ball on the wind. PSU passed for 300+ and EWU 225 against us in the wind. We have three receivers that if Gubrud was throwing to he would be throwing over 500 yards every game. I think Murray has come a long way, does some amazing things, but I wonder how far he can carry us. This offense is not working. I thought Messingham was pretty bad at play calling, I am starting to have those same feelings. I get that the run is working for us, but that should only help the passing game. As I have said before, how do you go recruit receivers or keep the really good ones you have if all they do is block for running backs all game. Talent is being wasted and that sucks to see. Herbert should have easily had over 1000 yards this season, Kassis should be over 1000 yards each season. Like I said, there is a lot of great things about Murray, but we need to have a passing game that we can count on to win games when needed.
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Re: Chris Murray
I've been pretty vocal about my support of Murray as a stud for the offense but less so as a QB. I loved the UND game because of the obvious "breakout" that had happened in the 2nd half of SDSU, that seemed to develop into a full game trend at UND. That's why he is still the QB. (Thoughts below are from a previous thread that I was too lazy to retype )
I believe honestly nothing is going to change this season, Murray remains as our QB, we need to see him take easy pedestrian shots with the ball to give him the basic confidence to at least make some throws. Choate is not going to ever be an air raid Offense but has already said he leans towards a smash mouth downhill run game. But, the QB has to be able to "deal it" out to the rest of the weapons to make the offensive side of the ball harder to defend for a D, and to be more explosive. I agree 100% with that.
Remembering back last year when Tyler B was the QB, Choate assumed that is the kind of game plan he would run. The problem was TB was ineffective in games and Murray gets thrown into the fire.
It was clear for 4 games Murray could not pass consistently, was turning the ball over way too much, but, he could run like the wind. SO, Choate admitted they completely rewired the offence to fit Murray. This IS NOT WHAT he wants long term. But, this season Murray showed enough improvement to get the nod to stay at QB, and to make some throws.
Throw out the Coug game, but with SDSU in the first half it was terrible. But the 2nd half was 100% better. UND was the best and most complete game CM has played, and MSU blew them up!!! Why? Because he dealt the ball around, made plays BOTH with the run and pass and involved his playmakers. Since then????
We are starting to see a reversion back to the first half of SDSU Chris Murray...and MSU is losing games because of his decisions to not trust his arm, his playmakers.
He can still run like the wind...and is a tremendous athlete who needs to be on the field all game...but a QB who can be what Choate wants, will not only make the team better, but will see us get over the hump in the W-L categories.
Right now, we are a 1 winged bird...that can run pretty well!
I believe honestly nothing is going to change this season, Murray remains as our QB, we need to see him take easy pedestrian shots with the ball to give him the basic confidence to at least make some throws. Choate is not going to ever be an air raid Offense but has already said he leans towards a smash mouth downhill run game. But, the QB has to be able to "deal it" out to the rest of the weapons to make the offensive side of the ball harder to defend for a D, and to be more explosive. I agree 100% with that.
Remembering back last year when Tyler B was the QB, Choate assumed that is the kind of game plan he would run. The problem was TB was ineffective in games and Murray gets thrown into the fire.
It was clear for 4 games Murray could not pass consistently, was turning the ball over way too much, but, he could run like the wind. SO, Choate admitted they completely rewired the offence to fit Murray. This IS NOT WHAT he wants long term. But, this season Murray showed enough improvement to get the nod to stay at QB, and to make some throws.
Throw out the Coug game, but with SDSU in the first half it was terrible. But the 2nd half was 100% better. UND was the best and most complete game CM has played, and MSU blew them up!!! Why? Because he dealt the ball around, made plays BOTH with the run and pass and involved his playmakers. Since then????
We are starting to see a reversion back to the first half of SDSU Chris Murray...and MSU is losing games because of his decisions to not trust his arm, his playmakers.
He can still run like the wind...and is a tremendous athlete who needs to be on the field all game...but a QB who can be what Choate wants, will not only make the team better, but will see us get over the hump in the W-L categories.
Right now, we are a 1 winged bird...that can run pretty well!
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Re: Chris Murray
I think its obvious that Murray's passing (mechanics, vision, pocket presence) all leave a lot to be desired. But its worth remembering that D-Mac was on his 5th start at this point in his career. Prukop was still riding the bench. D-Mac arrived on campus as a pretty accomplished passer. If D-Mac had Murray's athletic ability, he would have been recruited by a power 5 schools. Prukop & Murray, on the other hand were recruited solely on the basis of their athletic ability-they showed up having to learn pretty basic QB skills. If either of them had been remotely capable passers in HS, they would have been recruited by Power 5 teams.
I guess what I'm getting at is that Murray's progression is exactly where you would expect it to be given his high school experience starting his second year in the system. He isn't starting because we don't have a better QB option.
We've really struck out with QB recruits (and retainment) over the last 5 years. When Prukop left early, the Cats had already lost McQueary to the Frontier League. He could have been our starter for the last 2 years. Jordan Hoy left-he landed at FBS Old Dominion (some say good riddance). And an incredibly talented Tyler Bruggman just couldn't put it together on the field and transferred to Texas A&M after losing his starting gig to a true Frosh.
Nobody in their right mind ever would have recruited Murray to compete for a starting spot on an FCS team three weeks after he arrived on campus, but there he is. He shows all the signs of being coachable. His QB skills are developing right where you would want them to be. If Rovig is ready for prime time next fall, I'd expect it to be quite the competition. Until then, lets hope the coaching staff can figure out how to maximize his skill set.
I guess what I'm getting at is that Murray's progression is exactly where you would expect it to be given his high school experience starting his second year in the system. He isn't starting because we don't have a better QB option.
We've really struck out with QB recruits (and retainment) over the last 5 years. When Prukop left early, the Cats had already lost McQueary to the Frontier League. He could have been our starter for the last 2 years. Jordan Hoy left-he landed at FBS Old Dominion (some say good riddance). And an incredibly talented Tyler Bruggman just couldn't put it together on the field and transferred to Texas A&M after losing his starting gig to a true Frosh.
Nobody in their right mind ever would have recruited Murray to compete for a starting spot on an FCS team three weeks after he arrived on campus, but there he is. He shows all the signs of being coachable. His QB skills are developing right where you would want them to be. If Rovig is ready for prime time next fall, I'd expect it to be quite the competition. Until then, lets hope the coaching staff can figure out how to maximize his skill set.
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Re: Chris Murray
I don't think thats totally true. Murray bounced a pass right off of Sullivans hands early in the EWOO game, killing a promising drive. He had several other catchable balls that the receivers didn't haul in, and a couple of spectacular defensive plays by the EWU defensive backs. Playmakers need to make plays-right now the ONLY "playmaker" on offense is Chris Murray, and then, only with his legs. Until our playmakers at WR recover their lost form, of course Murray is going to try to do it all with his legs.catsrback76 wrote:I've been pretty vocal about my support of Murray as a stud for the offense but less so as a QB. I loved the UND game because of the obvious "breakout" that had happened in the 2nd half of SDSU, that seemed to develop into a full game trend at UND. That's why he is still the QB. (Thoughts below are from a previous thread that I was too lazy to retype )
I believe honestly nothing is going to change this season, Murray remains as our QB, we need to see him take easy pedestrian shots with the ball to give him the basic confidence to at least make some throws. Choate is not going to ever be an air raid Offense but has already said he leans towards a smash mouth downhill run game. But, the QB has to be able to "deal it" out to the rest of the weapons to make the offensive side of the ball harder to defend for a D, and to be more explosive. I agree 100% with that.
Remembering back last year when Tyler B was the QB, Choate assumed that is the kind of game plan he would run. The problem was TB was ineffective in games and Murray gets thrown into the fire.
It was clear for 4 games Murray could not pass consistently, was turning the ball over way too much, but, he could run like the wind. SO, Choate admitted they completely rewired the offence to fit Murray. This IS NOT WHAT he wants long term. But, this season Murray showed enough improvement to get the nod to stay at QB, and to make some throws.
Throw out the Coug game, but with SDSU in the first half it was terrible. But the 2nd half was 100% better. UND was the best and most complete game CM has played, and MSU blew them up!!! Why? Because he dealt the ball around, made plays BOTH with the run and pass and involved his playmakers. Since then????
We are starting to see a reversion back to the first half of SDSU Chris Murray...and MSU is losing games because of his decisions to not trust his arm, his playmakers.
He can still run like the wind...and is a tremendous athlete who needs to be on the field all game...but a QB who can be what Choate wants, will not only make the team better, but will see us get over the hump in the W-L categories.
Right now, we are a 1 winged bird...that can run pretty well!
Edit: our receivers haven't been bad, they just aren't making the plays they need to in order to extend drives and allow Murray to get into his rhythm.
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Re: Chris Murray
Good point. He also airmailed a wide open Andersen on the 2 pt conversion, forced a bullet over the middle that was essentially uncatchable by anyone that got tipped and intercepted...so we can't completely lay it on the receivers. Jabari catches EVERY jump ball thrown his way, and there were at least 2 that were thrown to him that no one could catch. There was a sure TD long ball that was 5 yards beyond I think Kassis...etc.onceacat wrote:I don't think thats totally true. Murray bounced a pass right off of Sullivans hands early in the EWOO game, killing a promising drive. He had several other catchable balls that the receivers didn't haul in, and a couple of spectacular defensive plays by the EWU defensive backs. Playmakers need to make plays-right now the ONLY "playmaker" on offense is Chris Murray, and then, only with his legs. Until our playmakers at WR recover their lost form, of course Murray is going to try to do it all with his legs.catsrback76 wrote:I've been pretty vocal about my support of Murray as a stud for the offense but less so as a QB. I loved the UND game because of the obvious "breakout" that had happened in the 2nd half of SDSU, that seemed to develop into a full game trend at UND. That's why he is still the QB. (Thoughts below are from a previous thread that I was too lazy to retype )
I believe honestly nothing is going to change this season, Murray remains as our QB, we need to see him take easy pedestrian shots with the ball to give him the basic confidence to at least make some throws. Choate is not going to ever be an air raid Offense but has already said he leans towards a smash mouth downhill run game. But, the QB has to be able to "deal it" out to the rest of the weapons to make the offensive side of the ball harder to defend for a D, and to be more explosive. I agree 100% with that.
Remembering back last year when Tyler B was the QB, Choate assumed that is the kind of game plan he would run. The problem was TB was ineffective in games and Murray gets thrown into the fire.
It was clear for 4 games Murray could not pass consistently, was turning the ball over way too much, but, he could run like the wind. SO, Choate admitted they completely rewired the offence to fit Murray. This IS NOT WHAT he wants long term. But, this season Murray showed enough improvement to get the nod to stay at QB, and to make some throws.
Throw out the Coug game, but with SDSU in the first half it was terrible. But the 2nd half was 100% better. UND was the best and most complete game CM has played, and MSU blew them up!!! Why? Because he dealt the ball around, made plays BOTH with the run and pass and involved his playmakers. Since then????
We are starting to see a reversion back to the first half of SDSU Chris Murray...and MSU is losing games because of his decisions to not trust his arm, his playmakers.
He can still run like the wind...and is a tremendous athlete who needs to be on the field all game...but a QB who can be what Choate wants, will not only make the team better, but will see us get over the hump in the W-L categories.
Right now, we are a 1 winged bird...that can run pretty well!
- Helcat72
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Re: Chris Murray
Murray is definitely a rhythm and touch passer....his arm strength is not that of a gunner who can hit tight windows over the middle....so Army doesn't make him do it. He throws the timing outs, and long touch passes down the sidelines, fades, and long posts. The running game carries the rest of the offense. For now this will have to do until Chris can get in the weight room and improve the strenght of his arm.
Last edited by Helcat72 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chris Murray
Armanti Edwards had a lot of similarities in skills but operated in a different offensive scheme (if memory serves)
Eventually his passing skills increased and he, as well as ASU, depended less on his feet. His ability to slip tackles combined with his light frame added to his durability.
http://www.foxsports.com/college-footba ... ayer-stats
Eventually Armanti played receiver in the NFL and CFL, a position several people here have mentioned a possible skill set for him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armanti_Edwards
Our offense has not clicked to the abilities of Chris or the rest of the skill set players. "Army" and Choate need to figure it out.
We have seen glimpses but not complete possible performances of which the O side of the ball is capable.
Mental game and rhythm of play calls seem to be the largest issue. When this is fixed we will like what we see.
Murray will get better.
Eventually his passing skills increased and he, as well as ASU, depended less on his feet. His ability to slip tackles combined with his light frame added to his durability.
http://www.foxsports.com/college-footba ... ayer-stats
Eventually Armanti played receiver in the NFL and CFL, a position several people here have mentioned a possible skill set for him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armanti_Edwards
Our offense has not clicked to the abilities of Chris or the rest of the skill set players. "Army" and Choate need to figure it out.
We have seen glimpses but not complete possible performances of which the O side of the ball is capable.
Mental game and rhythm of play calls seem to be the largest issue. When this is fixed we will like what we see.
Murray will get better.
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Re: Chris Murray
Unused players at this level (they're not pros) get flat-footed when you don't use them. (Similar to when a pitcher can't throw strikes and then a ball is hit right past a fielder and he doesn't react in time because he's been lulled to sleep by all the walks). That's a problem with the MSU pass game. MSU does not have the traditional power run game, so WRs come here with the expectation that they'll be involved in a pass game to some extent. They go through the motion of running a route but they aren't sold on the possibility that a pass is actually coming their way. Yet another thing that boils down to focus.
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Re: Chris Murray
I've seen what I thought were some half-hearted plays by our WRs, but maybe this is why. It has to be frustrating, but they have to stay engaged (focused) throughout the play. I think we call more pass plays than you think, but protection breaks down and Murray takes off. Sometimes too soon. They need to tighten that part of their game up.
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Re: Chris Murray
I think we need to throw more 6-8 yard passes. You can't tell me that if Herbert and Johnson both line up on the same side of the field running 6-8 yard routes that one of them won't be open. Pass protection should last that long and if it doesn't, we got bigger problems than no pass game. 10 of these a game would do wonders for Murray's development as a passer.
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Re: Chris Murray
So, in summary. The passing game has quite a few problems with many solutions.
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Re: Chris Murray
This game seemed a lot different than the previous game. It looked to me we only ran three plays. Run up the middle, option, and a rare pass. And you could tell if it was an option or run up the middle depending on which back was in.
- luckyirishguy25
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Re: Chris Murray
Didn't you realize BCN was full of former NFL QB's? I kid, but I think we should all realize we're heading in a good direction and let the coaches do their jobs.Hawks86 wrote:So, in summary. The passing game has quite a few problems with many solutions.
Enjoy the rest of the Season guys. Its going to be another short one, with a long off-season. Enjoy what we have while we have it.
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Re: Chris Murray
This isn't an offensive coordinator issue as some suggest.
We had every chance to beat ewu and honestly should have. 3 fumbles in the red zone? That's just crap focus.
The reason we don't throw 20-30 times a game is Murray (while improving over last year) is still not making his full progressions and still making poor reads, again he has definitely progressed from last year. And the coaches (rightfully) believe we can consistently put our team in a position to move the ball being a run based team.
I'd much rather get 2-3 first downs then have to punt then throw 3 times and get a 3and out or a pick.
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We had every chance to beat ewu and honestly should have. 3 fumbles in the red zone? That's just crap focus.
The reason we don't throw 20-30 times a game is Murray (while improving over last year) is still not making his full progressions and still making poor reads, again he has definitely progressed from last year. And the coaches (rightfully) believe we can consistently put our team in a position to move the ball being a run based team.
I'd much rather get 2-3 first downs then have to punt then throw 3 times and get a 3and out or a pick.
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Re: Chris Murray
What this dude said....BigBruceBaker wrote:This isn't an offensive coordinator issue as some suggest.
We had every chance to beat ewu and honestly should have. 3 fumbles in the red zone? That's just crap focus.
The reason we don't throw 20-30 times a game is Murray (while improving over last year) is still not making his full progressions and still making poor reads, again he has definitely progressed from last year. And the coaches (rightfully) believe we can consistently put our team in a position to move the ball being a run based team.
I'd much rather get 2-3 first downs then have to punt then throw 3 times and get a 3and out or a pick.
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