Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

[blueandgoldblitz]

Choate needs to drop them NOW, not after the courts get done with this.
They were both on life support when they got here.
Send a message to the team and the prospects.

I could not agree more.


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Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong here but I had heard that the discipline of these two is out of Choate's hands. I don't recall why, maybe because they're being charged with felonies or just because of the nature of the crime? Anyways, the administration is in charge of disciplining them so Choate has no say in the matter anymore.

[VimSince03]

Choate needs to drop them NOW, not after the courts get done with this.
They were both on life support when they got here.
Send a message to the team and the prospects.

I could not agree more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong here but I had heard that the discipline of these two is out of Choate's hands. I don't recall why, maybe because they're being charged with felonies or just because of the nature of the crime? Anyways, the administration is in charge of disciplining them so Choate has no say in the matter anymore.

Correct. Choate is following the policies that are in place by the school and athletic department. The most he can do is suspend them indefinitely. And if I'm wrong here, please correct me so I can put my foot in my mouth.

[Hawks86]

7. Suspension – Removal of a student-athlete from all athletic department activities ...

Violation of Criminal Law: When a student-athlete has engaged in conduct alleged to be in violation of criminal law,
immediately upon receipt of notice of such possible violation the Head Coach must report the information to the Director of
Athletics.
Student-athletes arrested for, or charged with, violating the criminal law will be immediately suspended from practice and
competition. Within 48 hours of notice of a suspension, the student-athlete’s coach or designee shall review the
suspension and recommend to the Director of Athletics whether the suspension should continue. Within 10 days of notice
of suspension, the student-athlete shall be afforded the opportunity to present his or her position before the Director of
Athletics, the Faculty Athletics Representative, and the Chair of the Athletics Committee. Based on available information,
the Director of Athletics may at any time prior to a finding or plea of guilty to a criminal charge may lift or modify the
suspension. If the student-athlete is found guilty of the felony charge, such student-athlete shall be barred permanently
from participation in intercollegiate athletics on any campus of the MSU System.
A student-athlete suspended from participation as a result of a criminal charge shall not be prohibited from receiving
financial aid during the pendency of such criminal charge. Upon plea of guilty or a finding of guilt in a felony case, the
University shall immediately determine whether the student-athlete’s aid shall continue. This policy is applicable to all
renewals of current athletic aid commitments and to all subsequently awarded athletic financial aid.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/ ... proval.pdf

[Rich K]

Choate needs to drop them NOW, not after the courts get done with this.
They were both on life support when they got here.
Send a message to the team and the prospects.

I could not agree more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong here but I had heard that the discipline of these two is out of Choate's hands. I don't recall why, maybe because they're being charged with felonies or just because of the nature of the crime? Anyways, the administration is in charge of disciplining them so Choate has no say in the matter anymore.

Correct. Choate is following the policies that are in place by the school and athletic department. The most he can do is suspend them indefinitely. And if I'm wrong here, please correct me so I can put my foot in my mouth.

What about any of the scholarship money, is it freed up for somebody else?

[Grizaddict]

Choate needs to drop them NOW, not after the courts get done with this.
They were both on life support when they got here.
Send a message to the team and the prospects.

I could not agree more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong here but I had heard that the discipline of these two is out of Choate's hands. I don't recall why, maybe because they're being charged with felonies or just because of the nature of the crime? Anyways, the administration is in charge of disciplining them so Choate has no say in the matter anymore.

Correct. Choate is following the policies that are in place by the school and athletic department. The most he can do is suspend them indefinitely. And if I'm wrong here, please correct me so I can put my foot in my mouth.

You are correct. UM has taken discipline away from their coaches and leaves it in the hands of the AD and school through their student Code of Conduct as well. I think this is becoming the "norm" anymore so coaches don't get themselves in hot water.

[iaafan]

It should've been the norm in college sports all along. Robin Pflugrad's situation probably made that happen.

[Grizaddict]

It should've been the norm in college sports all along. Robin Pflugrad's situation probably made that happen.

I can only speak for UM, but yes this was a huge part of their transition to a student code of conduct. They want to eliminate coaching bias and decisions all together. They lay everything out ahead of time and you do the time that fits the crime. Agree should have been that way a long time ago.

[imacat]

7. Suspension – Removal of a student-athlete from all athletic department activities ...

Violation of Criminal Law: When a student-athlete has engaged in conduct alleged to be in violation of criminal law,
immediately upon receipt of notice of such possible violation the Head Coach must report the information to the Director of
Athletics.
Student-athletes arrested for, or charged with, violating the criminal law will be immediately suspended from practice and
competition. Within 48 hours of notice of a suspension, the student-athlete’s coach or designee shall review the
suspension and recommend to the Director of Athletics whether the suspension should continue. Within 10 days of notice
of suspension, the student-athlete shall be afforded the opportunity to present his or her position before the Director of
Athletics, the Faculty Athletics Representative, and the Chair of the Athletics Committee. Based on available information,
the Director of Athletics may at any time prior to a finding or plea of guilty to a criminal charge may lift or modify the
suspension. If the student-athlete is found guilty of the felony charge, such student-athlete shall be barred permanently
from participation in intercollegiate athletics on any campus of the MSU System.
A student-athlete suspended from participation as a result of a criminal charge shall not be prohibited from receiving
financial aid during the pendency of such criminal charge. Upon plea of guilty or a finding of guilt in a felony case, the
University shall immediately determine whether the student-athlete’s aid shall continue. This policy is applicable to all
renewals of current athletic aid commitments and to all subsequently awarded athletic financial aid.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/ ... proval.pdf

After reading this, I need to cut Coach Choate some slack for the way he has handled this. It still bothers me deeply that Hale and Gardenhire have not been released.


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[Montanabob]

Read it closer.
No where does it say a guilty verdict is required. Options 8 & 9 are one the table.

When the Department of Athletics becomes aware of an alleged violation of this Code of Conduct, the Director of Athletics
or his/her designee (“the AD”) will take reasonable steps to verify the validity, reliability, and accuracy of the report. These
steps may include interviews of students and employees, or of non-University persons having knowledge of relevant facts;
examination of documents; and other steps necessary for the AD to determine the merits of the report. A meeting with the
student-athlete will ordinarily occur before any discipline is imposed; however, in extenuating circumstances, the AD may
suspend the student-athlete before the meeting.
Determination of responsibility will be based on a preponderance of evidence and information available. A first-time offense
may be serious enough to warrant any of the possible sanctions listed below. A student-athlete’s refusal to participate and
cooperate in an Athletic Department or NCAA investigation of possible violation of this Code of Conduct or NCAA rules may
itself constitute a basis for disciplinary action.
Possible Sanctions Include but are not limited to:
1. Warning – the issuance of a written warning
2. Probation – Special status with conditions imposed for a limited time
3. Community Service
4. Required educational or counseling sessions
5. Drug Testing
6. Restitution – i.e Payment for damaged property
7. Suspension – Removal of a student-athlete from all athletic department activities for a limited period of time.
8. Expulsion – Permanent removal from a team and/or department activities
9. Withdrawal of Financial Aid – Termination of athletically related financial aid as allowable by NCAA
regulations

[imacat]

Read it closer.
No where does it say a guilty verdict is required. Options 8 & 9 are one the table.

When the Department of Athletics becomes aware of an alleged violation of this Code of Conduct, the Director of Athletics
or his/her designee (“the AD”) will take reasonable steps to verify the validity, reliability, and accuracy of the report. These
steps may include interviews of students and employees, or of non-University persons having knowledge of relevant facts;
examination of documents; and other steps necessary for the AD to determine the merits of the report. A meeting with the
student-athlete will ordinarily occur before any discipline is imposed; however, in extenuating circumstances, the AD may
suspend the student-athlete before the meeting.
Determination of responsibility will be based on a preponderance of evidence and information available. A first-time offense
may be serious enough to warrant any of the possible sanctions listed below. A student-athlete’s refusal to participate and
cooperate in an Athletic Department or NCAA investigation of possible violation of this Code of Conduct or NCAA rules may
itself constitute a basis for disciplinary action.
Possible Sanctions Include but are not limited to:
1. Warning – the issuance of a written warning
2. Probation – Special status with conditions imposed for a limited time
3. Community Service
4. Required educational or counseling sessions
5. Drug Testing
6. Restitution – i.e Payment for damaged property
7. Suspension – Removal of a student-athlete from all athletic department activities for a limited period of time.
8. Expulsion – Permanent removal from a team and/or department activities
9. Withdrawal of Financial Aid – Termination of athletically related financial aid as allowable by NCAA
regulations

I must confess I am confused about how much latitude Coach Choate does or does not have in this case. I will say this, if he has authority to release these two players and is choosing not to do so, all sorts of red flags are going off for me.


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[TomCat88]

You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't kicked them off the team. You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't spoken out in their defense, but you do have to like that they're being given due process. It's one of the pillars this country was built upon. The thing to do is let it play out -- go through it's due process -- and move on from there.

[utucats]

You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't kicked them off the team. You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't spoken out in their defense, but you do have to like that they're being given due process. It's one of the pillars this country was built upon. The thing to do is let it play out -- go through it's due process -- and move on from there.

Agreed TC. Apparently some don't believe in innocent until proven guilty. The appropriate response is the one we are taking.

As a side note, I think anyone who has ever cheered for either of these two players has proven to be someone who can't be trusted. I mean the fact that anyone couldn't see into the future and know that bringing them here would automatically lead to their criminal behavior is astonishing to me and frankly it raises a lot of red flags about our fan base. Of course each of us would be guilty of this and hopefully each of us can find a way to realize how ridiculous it is to apply a standard to our coach that we don't follow ourselves.

These players were welcomed with open arms because, like Coach, we want to win. Had they finished their college days without incident we would talk about how wonderful our coach is for being willing to hand out second chances and being able to see that inner character. Instead it doesn't work out and our holier than thou group turns their noses up and starts barking about how Coach screwed up and how it better not become a pattern. Cmon people, get off your high horse. Choate personally selling drugs is a pattern that I'd be concerned with. All of us cheering for some kid when he makes a play on Saturday and then acting like we are any better than coach when we find out that same kid made a mistake 6 months later is about the most hypocritical behavior imaginable. If Coach is guilty of anything so is each and every one of us. Unless you support not allowing ANY admittance of students with any prior criminal history then you should not be critical.

[Hi-Line Bobcat]

You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't kicked them off the team. You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't spoken out in their defense, but you do have to like that they're being given due process. It's one of the pillars this country was built upon. The thing to do is let it play out -- go through it's due process -- and move on from there.

Agreed TC. Apparently some don't believe in innocent until proven guilty. The appropriate response is the one we are taking.

As a side note, I think anyone who has ever cheered for either of these two players has proven to be someone who can't be trusted. I mean the fact that anyone couldn't see into the future and know that bringing them here would automatically lead to their criminal behavior is astonishing to me and frankly it raises a lot of red flags about our fan base. Of course each of us would be guilty of this and hopefully each of us can find a way to realize how ridiculous it is to apply a standard to our coach that we don't follow ourselves.

These players were welcomed with open arms because, like Coach, we want to win. Had they finished their college days without incident we would talk about how wonderful our coach is for being willing to hand out second chances and being able to see that inner character. Instead it doesn't work out and our holier than thou group turns their noses up and starts barking about how Coach screwed up and how it better not become a pattern. Cmon people, get off your high horse. Choate personally selling drugs is a pattern that I'd be concerned with. All of us cheering for some kid when he makes a play on Saturday and then acting like we are any better than coach when we find out that same kid made a mistake 6 months later is about the most hypocritical behavior imaginable. If Coach is guilty of anything so is each and every one of us. Unless you support not allowing ANY admittance of students with any prior criminal history then you should not be critical.

Exactly, I said the same thing two weeks ago. Its so true to.

[BleedingBLue]

You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't kicked them off the team. You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't spoken out in their defense, but you do have to like that they're being given due process. It's one of the pillars this country was built upon. The thing to do is let it play out -- go through it's due process -- and move on from there.

Agreed TC. Apparently some don't believe in innocent until proven guilty. The appropriate response is the one we are taking.

As a side note, I think anyone who has ever cheered for either of these two players has proven to be someone who can't be trusted. I mean the fact that anyone couldn't see into the future and know that bringing them here would automatically lead to their criminal behavior is astonishing to me and frankly it raises a lot of red flags about our fan base. Of course each of us would be guilty of this and hopefully each of us can find a way to realize how ridiculous it is to apply a standard to our coach that we don't follow ourselves.

These players were welcomed with open arms because, like Coach, we want to win. Had they finished their college days without incident we would talk about how wonderful our coach is for being willing to hand out second chances and being able to see that inner character. Instead it doesn't work out and our holier than thou group turns their noses up and starts barking about how Coach screwed up and how it better not become a pattern. Cmon people, get off your high horse. Choate personally selling drugs is a pattern that I'd be concerned with. All of us cheering for some kid when he makes a play on Saturday and then acting like we are any better than coach when we find out that same kid made a mistake 6 months later is about the most hypocritical behavior imaginable. If Coach is guilty of anything so is each and every one of us. Unless you support not allowing ANY admittance of students with any prior criminal history then you should not be critical.

Well said

[Hawks86]

https://twitter.com/wabermes/status/860170546926977024

[DriscollCat]

You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't kicked them off the team. You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't spoken out in their defense, but you do have to like that they're being given due process. It's one of the pillars this country was built upon. The thing to do is let it play out -- go through it's due process -- and move on from there.

Agreed TC. Apparently some don't believe in innocent until proven guilty. The appropriate response is the one we are taking.

As a side note, I think anyone who has ever cheered for either of these two players has proven to be someone who can't be trusted. I mean the fact that anyone couldn't see into the future and know that bringing them here would automatically lead to their criminal behavior is astonishing to me and frankly it raises a lot of red flags about our fan base. Of course each of us would be guilty of this and hopefully each of us can find a way to realize how ridiculous it is to apply a standard to our coach that we don't follow ourselves.

These players were welcomed with open arms because, like Coach, we want to win. Had they finished their college days without incident we would talk about how wonderful our coach is for being willing to hand out second chances and being able to see that inner character. Instead it doesn't work out and our holier than thou group turns their noses up and starts barking about how Coach screwed up and how it better not become a pattern. Cmon people, get off your high horse. Choate personally selling drugs is a pattern that I'd be concerned with. All of us cheering for some kid when he makes a play on Saturday and then acting like we are any better than coach when we find out that same kid made a mistake 6 months later is about the most hypocritical behavior imaginable. If Coach is guilty of anything so is each and every one of us. Unless you support not allowing ANY admittance of students with any prior criminal history then you should not be critical.

Actually, some of us had misgivings about Gardenhire. I was not as familiar with the process of recruiting Hale. As I have said before, it seemed sketchy to bring someone on who was leaving his team right before their rivalry game because he did not want to take a drug test. Though I thought this, I also recognized that Choate probably had more insight into the situation since he had coached at that school the previous year, so I didn't get too worried about it. What the arrest reveals is that if coach did have greater insight into the character of Gardenhire (maybe he didn't), then the decision was more questionable than I had originally worried it was.

I am not saying that coach Choate "...has proven to be someone who can't be trusted." It is completely possible that he is a great guy. What I am saying is that, to me, the Gardenhire decision seems more questionable in light of the arrests because I had little insight into his character before, other than the fact that he left his team over a drug test, but now that I have a little more insight I think the he is not the kind of guy we should be recruiting.

Maybe Choate did not have that level of insight to begin with. It seems like he should have.

Side note:

Everyone deserves due process and the benefit of the doubt. It is also important to recognize that given the way that the arrests went down and the fact that Hale remotely cleared the data from his phone, I don't think any of us are super optimistic about the outcome in this case.

[Lovethecats75]

Missed one word. and the fact that Hale "alleadgeadly" remotely cleared the data from his phone,

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[iaafan]

That's funny Driscoll. You say everyone deserves due process and then state in your next sentence that it's a fact that Hale remotely cleared data from his phone. You're right though, it doesn't look promising for them.

[imacat]

You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't kicked them off the team. You don't have to like or dislike that he hasn't spoken out in their defense, but you do have to like that they're being given due process. It's one of the pillars this country was built upon. The thing to do is let it play out -- go through it's due process -- and move on from there.

Agreed TC. Apparently some don't believe in innocent until proven guilty. The appropriate response is the one we are taking.

As a side note, I think anyone who has ever cheered for either of these two players has proven to be someone who can't be trusted. I mean the fact that anyone couldn't see into the future and know that bringing them here would automatically lead to their criminal behavior is astonishing to me and frankly it raises a lot of red flags about our fan base. Of course each of us would be guilty of this and hopefully each of us can find a way to realize how ridiculous it is to apply a standard to our coach that we don't follow ourselves.

These players were welcomed with open arms because, like Coach, we want to win. Had they finished their college days without incident we would talk about how wonderful our coach is for being willing to hand out second chances and being able to see that inner character. Instead it doesn't work out and our holier than thou group turns their noses up and starts barking about how Coach screwed up and how it better not become a pattern. Cmon people, get off your high horse. Choate personally selling drugs is a pattern that I'd be concerned with. All of us cheering for some kid when he makes a play on Saturday and then acting like we are any better than coach when we find out that same kid made a mistake 6 months later is about the most hypocritical behavior imaginable. If Coach is guilty of anything so is each and every one of us. Unless you support not allowing ANY admittance of students with any prior criminal history then you should not be critical.

My issue is not that these two players were given a second chance to play for the Bobcats. As I stated in an earlier post, I am not second guessing the decision to recruit them. And yes, I did cheer for them and I wanted them to succeed. Success is not just winning football games but also getting a degree and being a positive ambassador for Montana State. This is my expectation of all student/athletes.

Being a member of a Montana State University athletic team is not a right, rather it is a privilege. With privileges, come responsibilities. One of the responsibilities of a student athlete is not to put themselves in a position to embarrass their University or Program.

These two players failed that responsibility in a major way. We all know that.

The standards for receiving a scholarship and being given the privilege of representing Montana State on the playing field are higher than the legal standards. Athletes do get dismissed for infractions that do not rise to the legal definition of criminal. You do not have to look very hard to find recent precedents.

I would rather see us lose games than lower our standards. Not that I see this as an either/or choice. We can win without flinching on the our expectations.



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[PHAT CAT]

Chill the F out and give it a rest. Move on with your life.