Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

[BigBruceBaker]

So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


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[KittieKop]

So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


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I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.

[91catAlum]

Colter's points were spot on. He said this could be looked on as a fireable offense but that he didn't think it would be. The points he made on Choate taking on this risk were on point though. He knew exactly who these kids were. He knew exactly why they got booted or quit Washington. He had to go to bat with the administration for these kids to get a second chance. Then these kids pissed in his face with their second chance. I agree 100% that looks very, very bad for Choate.

He also said once it is a felony, everything lies with the Dean of Students and Administation. That Choate and coaches are removed from it completely...the punishment, commenting on it, etc is not allowed by coaches. This is the point I made with the Griz student code of conduct and many other colleges that take the coaches out of the equation. So Choate wasn't some hero that instantly suspended these guys. The school admin did. Choate has egg on his face from this.

Easy there​, chief. Yes it does reflect poorly on Choate, no question. But it's tough to fault a guy for giving these 2 talented kids a second chance, and showing some confidence in them to hopefully help them stay on the straight and narrow. Unfortunately, they both blew that second chance, assuming they are guilty, and now they'll likely never play football again anywhere, forget MSU.

If it continues to happen over and over,, then Choate has got a serious problem. But anybody who thinks this by itself is a "fire-able" offense is being overly harsh, or is a griz fan.

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I don't think Choate should be fired. I also actually liked that he gave these kids another shot. Kids are idiots and make mistakes. So do we as adults. It comes down to who learns from these mistakes and becomes better. Unfortunately these two didn't and it does reflect directly on your coach who stuck his neck out for them. I'm guessing he will learn from this and not make this mistake again. And I'm not naive. It's a matter of time before a Griz player is in a newspaper and then a Cat and it will continue to go round and round.

Gotcha, good points. I was only arguing with the "fireable offense" part which it seemed like you were agreeing with at first.

[BleedingBLue]

What's also ridiculous about some of the comments being made is the comparison to Kramer above. Not even close to Kramer. This is 2 guys who were given a 2nd chance, and most everybody on here was still on the "everyone deserves a 2nd chance" boat until the news broke. Kramer had the same crap happen on a regular basis. Gatewood was dealing coke, and was part of a Coke ring involving other athletes, he was not dealing xanax. Lebrum (granted he was no longer on the team at this point) killed a man. I don't even remember a lot of the other garbage but let's not make that comparison​ again.

A lot of people's lives are built on 2nd chances. And a lot were given to them at a young age. I guarantee there are posters on here who got 2nd chances and made the most of them. Maybe not the circumstances that these guys were in but you get the point. I'd take 2 more 2nd chance guys today if we could. The outcome with these 2 doesn't look great, but neither does shutting out every guy who might just need that 2nd chance.

A lot of people's lives might be built on second chances, but that's because they don't f up their second chance. How are people missing the point here? Choate isn't being chastised for providing a 2nd chance, he's being chastised because the 2nd chance provided blew up in his face. And this is quite a bit different than most 2nd chance athletes. He knew way more about these two than most coaches, because most coaches didn't coach at the school they got their transfers from. Makes it even worse. I don't think it's fireable, but it makes his rope shorter, he can't miss this badly again.

I didn't realize Choate was a Prophet and knew these 2 would blow their 2nd chances. You can't say a lot of people's lives may have been built on 2nd chances but only because they didn't f them up, then chastise Choate for bringing these 2 in for a 2nd chance regardless of how much he knew about them he clearly thought they could change for the better. They didn't and it sucks but his leash shouldn't be any shorter. The best people in every profession take risks and sometimes those risks don't work out. I guess if you want to make someone stop taking risks, be cautious, and never be the best then shorten his leash.

[GoldstoneCat]

I agree with most here, Choate shouldn't be fired over this incident with these 2 idiots. In a vacuum, an incident like this is not a fire-able offense for a college coach. What it does do though, IMO, is make him less likely or less able to take a flier on a kid for the foreseeable future. There are too many in our fan base who carry the scars from Joe O'Brien, Rick Gatewood, John Lebrum, etc., for very many drug-dealing instances to be tolerated. I guess by saying that, I'm agreeing with those up-thread who have stated that he may be on a "shorter leash" in regard to transfers and/or kids with questionable histories at their prior universities. I don't think we're headed back to those days, and I think Choate will ultimately be a good coach and recruiter here, I guess I'm just saying that given our not-so-distant past, the goodwill he's already built among our fan base is not infinite.

[KittieKop]

What's also ridiculous about some of the comments being made is the comparison to Kramer above. Not even close to Kramer. This is 2 guys who were given a 2nd chance, and most everybody on here was still on the "everyone deserves a 2nd chance" boat until the news broke. Kramer had the same crap happen on a regular basis. Gatewood was dealing coke, and was part of a Coke ring involving other athletes, he was not dealing xanax. Lebrum (granted he was no longer on the team at this point) killed a man. I don't even remember a lot of the other garbage but let's not make that comparison​ again.

A lot of people's lives are built on 2nd chances. And a lot were given to them at a young age. I guarantee there are posters on here who got 2nd chances and made the most of them. Maybe not the circumstances that these guys were in but you get the point. I'd take 2 more 2nd chance guys today if we could. The outcome with these 2 doesn't look great, but neither does shutting out every guy who might just need that 2nd chance.

A lot of people's lives might be built on second chances, but that's because they don't f up their second chance. How are people missing the point here? Choate isn't being chastised for providing a 2nd chance, he's being chastised because the 2nd chance provided blew up in his face. And this is quite a bit different than most 2nd chance athletes. He knew way more about these two than most coaches, because most coaches didn't coach at the school they got their transfers from. Makes it even worse. I don't think it's fireable, but it makes his rope shorter, he can't miss this badly again.

I didn't realize Choate was a Prophet and knew these 2 would blow their 2nd chances. You can't say a lot of people's lives may have been built on 2nd chances but only because they didn't f them up, then chastise Choate for bringing these 2 in for a 2nd chance regardless of how much he knew about them he clearly thought they could change for the better. They didn't and it sucks but his leash shouldn't be any shorter. The best people in every profession take risks and sometimes those risks don't work out. I guess if you want to make someone stop taking risks, be cautious, and never be the best then shorten his leash.

You're implying the only way to succeed is by taking chances on fringe behavior-related drop down problems from bigger programs. If MSU wants to take "chances" on kids, I'd rather they take risks in signing fringe athletes. How many just in the last decade walk-on players have developed into solid scholarship players. If you're taking chances on behavior problems, you better be damn sure what you're doing. Damn sure, like knowledge the behavior was an exception to the rule for the kid and there's been a lesson learned. Not the chance of, "I'm better or smarter than the last program and know I can rehab this kid where the other program couldn't."

If the only way we can succeed is by taking chances on thugs and drug dealers, than I'd say we're no better than another Montana program a lot of people delight in giving grief to for the same issue. And if truly the only way to "get there" is to recruit crappy character players, then I'll be satisfied with a "mediocre program" as some people have termed us.

[technoCat]

What's also ridiculous about some of the comments being made is the comparison to Kramer above. Not even close to Kramer. This is 2 guys who were given a 2nd chance, and most everybody on here was still on the "everyone deserves a 2nd chance" boat until the news broke. Kramer had the same crap happen on a regular basis. Gatewood was dealing coke, and was part of a Coke ring involving other athletes, he was not dealing xanax. Lebrum (granted he was no longer on the team at this point) killed a man. I don't even remember a lot of the other garbage but let's not make that comparison​ again.

A lot of people's lives are built on 2nd chances. And a lot were given to them at a young age. I guarantee there are posters on here who got 2nd chances and made the most of them. Maybe not the circumstances that these guys were in but you get the point. I'd take 2 more 2nd chance guys today if we could. The outcome with these 2 doesn't look great, but neither does shutting out every guy who might just need that 2nd chance.

A lot of people's lives might be built on second chances, but that's because they don't f up their second chance. How are people missing the point here? Choate isn't being chastised for providing a 2nd chance, he's being chastised because the 2nd chance provided blew up in his face. And this is quite a bit different than most 2nd chance athletes. He knew way more about these two than most coaches, because most coaches didn't coach at the school they got their transfers from. Makes it even worse. I don't think it's fireable, but it makes his rope shorter, he can't miss this badly again.

I didn't realize Choate was a Prophet and knew these 2 would blow their 2nd chances. You can't say a lot of people's lives may have been built on 2nd chances but only because they didn't f them up, then chastise Choate for bringing these 2 in for a 2nd chance regardless of how much he knew about them he clearly thought they could change for the better. They didn't and it sucks but his leash shouldn't be any shorter. The best people in every profession take risks and sometimes those risks don't work out. I guess if you want to make someone stop taking risks, be cautious, and never be the best then shorten his leash.

You're implying the only way to succeed is by taking chances on fringe behavior-related drop down problems from bigger programs. If MSU wants to take "chances" on kids, I'd rather they take risks in signing fringe athletes. How many just in the last decade walk-on players have developed into solid scholarship players. If you're taking chances on behavior problems, you better be damn sure what you're doing. Damn sure, like knowledge the behavior was an exception to the rule for the kid and there's been a lesson learned. Not the chance of, "I'm better or smarter than the last program and know I can rehab this kid where the other program couldn't."

If the only way we can succeed is by taking chances on thugs and drug dealers, than I'd say we're no better than another Montana program a lot of people delight in giving grief to for the same issue. And if truly the only way to "get there" is to recruit crappy character players, then I'll be satisfied with a "mediocre program" as some people have termed us.

I don't think that picking up players that have been kicked off there former teams is a good strategy in any case. Guys that have chosen to leave the programs I can see but if a guy is "kicked" off there are probably underlying psychological issues that are just too much of a risk. I totally agree that we have seen enough prospects/projects come through the program and make a significant impact that were here for 4 years that it shows those guys are out there and need to be found. Can't always be getting star-struck by players some dweeb on a website said were 4 stars.

[BleedingBLue]

What's also ridiculous about some of the comments being made is the comparison to Kramer above. Not even close to Kramer. This is 2 guys who were given a 2nd chance, and most everybody on here was still on the "everyone deserves a 2nd chance" boat until the news broke. Kramer had the same crap happen on a regular basis. Gatewood was dealing coke, and was part of a Coke ring involving other athletes, he was not dealing xanax. Lebrum (granted he was no longer on the team at this point) killed a man. I don't even remember a lot of the other garbage but let's not make that comparison​ again.

A lot of people's lives are built on 2nd chances. And a lot were given to them at a young age. I guarantee there are posters on here who got 2nd chances and made the most of them. Maybe not the circumstances that these guys were in but you get the point. I'd take 2 more 2nd chance guys today if we could. The outcome with these 2 doesn't look great, but neither does shutting out every guy who might just need that 2nd chance.

A lot of people's lives might be built on second chances, but that's because they don't f up their second chance. How are people missing the point here? Choate isn't being chastised for providing a 2nd chance, he's being chastised because the 2nd chance provided blew up in his face. And this is quite a bit different than most 2nd chance athletes. He knew way more about these two than most coaches, because most coaches didn't coach at the school they got their transfers from. Makes it even worse. I don't think it's fireable, but it makes his rope shorter, he can't miss this badly again.

I didn't realize Choate was a Prophet and knew these 2 would blow their 2nd chances. You can't say a lot of people's lives may have been built on 2nd chances but only because they didn't f them up, then chastise Choate for bringing these 2 in for a 2nd chance regardless of how much he knew about them he clearly thought they could change for the better. They didn't and it sucks but his leash shouldn't be any shorter. The best people in every profession take risks and sometimes those risks don't work out. I guess if you want to make someone stop taking risks, be cautious, and never be the best then shorten his leash.

You're implying the only way to succeed is by taking chances on fringe behavior-related drop down problems from bigger programs. If MSU wants to take "chances" on kids, I'd rather they take risks in signing fringe athletes. How many just in the last decade walk-on players have developed into solid scholarship players. If you're taking chances on behavior problems, you better be damn sure what you're doing. Damn sure, like knowledge the behavior was an exception to the rule for the kid and there's been a lesson learned. Not the chance of, "I'm better or smarter than the last program and know I can rehab this kid where the other program couldn't."

If the only way we can succeed is by taking chances on thugs and drug dealers, than I'd say we're no better than another Montana program a lot of people delight in giving grief to for the same issue. And if truly the only way to "get there" is to recruit crappy character players, then I'll be satisfied with a "mediocre program" as some people have termed us.

I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying Choate thought these guys could be better, and they turned out not to be. Sh*t happens and in hindsight it was a mistake to bring them in. But I'll stand by my stance that this shouldn't turn into a no more booted transfers rule from Choate. Every situation is different. I do think Gardenhire coming in may have helped this situation get to the point it got to.

Would you have charactized either guy as a thug or drug dealer before this happened? If so I'd say that isn't too fair considering nobody but a select few know the exact reasons they were kicked off of UWs team, other than character issues and that Gardenhire refused a drug test. If smoking weed and being a dumb kid who makes bad choices makes you a thug then we probably have more thugs are our team than these two.

[77matcat]

Two players .......... I'm not getting a hernia. Let's get three or four years in the new regime and see how things settle out. Pretty sure these type of players won't be a part of the plan.


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[TomCat88]

What if one or both are found not guilty? Or if the charges are dropped? I imagine that Hale knows and can afford a good lawyer.

[KittieKop]

What's also ridiculous about some of the comments being made is the comparison to Kramer above. Not even close to Kramer. This is 2 guys who were given a 2nd chance, and most everybody on here was still on the "everyone deserves a 2nd chance" boat until the news broke. Kramer had the same crap happen on a regular basis. Gatewood was dealing coke, and was part of a Coke ring involving other athletes, he was not dealing xanax. Lebrum (granted he was no longer on the team at this point) killed a man. I don't even remember a lot of the other garbage but let's not make that comparison​ again.

A lot of people's lives are built on 2nd chances. And a lot were given to them at a young age. I guarantee there are posters on here who got 2nd chances and made the most of them. Maybe not the circumstances that these guys were in but you get the point. I'd take 2 more 2nd chance guys today if we could. The outcome with these 2 doesn't look great, but neither does shutting out every guy who might just need that 2nd chance.

A lot of people's lives might be built on second chances, but that's because they don't f up their second chance. How are people missing the point here? Choate isn't being chastised for providing a 2nd chance, he's being chastised because the 2nd chance provided blew up in his face. And this is quite a bit different than most 2nd chance athletes. He knew way more about these two than most coaches, because most coaches didn't coach at the school they got their transfers from. Makes it even worse. I don't think it's fireable, but it makes his rope shorter, he can't miss this badly again.

I didn't realize Choate was a Prophet and knew these 2 would blow their 2nd chances. You can't say a lot of people's lives may have been built on 2nd chances but only because they didn't f them up, then chastise Choate for bringing these 2 in for a 2nd chance regardless of how much he knew about them he clearly thought they could change for the better. They didn't and it sucks but his leash shouldn't be any shorter. The best people in every profession take risks and sometimes those risks don't work out. I guess if you want to make someone stop taking risks, be cautious, and never be the best then shorten his leash.

You're implying the only way to succeed is by taking chances on fringe behavior-related drop down problems from bigger programs. If MSU wants to take "chances" on kids, I'd rather they take risks in signing fringe athletes. How many just in the last decade walk-on players have developed into solid scholarship players. If you're taking chances on behavior problems, you better be damn sure what you're doing. Damn sure, like knowledge the behavior was an exception to the rule for the kid and there's been a lesson learned. Not the chance of, "I'm better or smarter than the last program and know I can rehab this kid where the other program couldn't."

If the only way we can succeed is by taking chances on thugs and drug dealers, than I'd say we're no better than another Montana program a lot of people delight in giving grief to for the same issue. And if truly the only way to "get there" is to recruit crappy character players, then I'll be satisfied with a "mediocre program" as some people have termed us.

I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying Choate thought these guys could be better, and they turned out not to be. Sh*t happens and in hindsight it was a mistake to bring them in. But I'll stand by my stance that this shouldn't turn into a no more booted transfers rule from Choate. Every situation is different. I do think Gardenhire coming in may have helped this situation get to the point it got to.

Would you have charactized either guy as a thug or drug dealer before this happened? If so I'd say that isn't too fair considering nobody but a select few know the exact reasons they were kicked off of UWs team, other than character issues and that Gardenhire refused a drug test. If smoking weed and being a dumb kid who makes bad choices makes you a thug then we probably have more thugs are our team than these two.

Well, let's not get off into the whether or not weed is bad or not discussion. Suffice it to say whether you're 18 years old, 13 years old or 24 years old, you sign on to something knowing what the requirements are. In this case drug testing. You don't get to say it's not fair and need a second chance because you decided to reneg on something you'd previously agreed to. You know, actions have consequences. Or at least we should teach our kids they do. Too often we keep excusing bad behavior, which many times begets more bad behavior.

No, I'm not saying either of these guys are "thugs", but I also certainly don't agree that the only way we're going anywhere is by actively recruiting fringe players with a history.

[77matcat]

Then they are not guilty.

Assume team rules still affect them.


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[imacat]

Well, let's not get off into the whether or not weed is bad or not discussion. Suffice it to say whether you're 18 years old, 13 years old or 24 years old, you sign on to something knowing what the requirements are. In this case drug testing. You don't get to say it's not fair and need a second chance because you decided to reneg on something you'd previously agreed to. You know, actions have consequences. Or at least we should teach our kids they do. Too often we keep excusing bad behavior, which many times begets more bad behavior.

No, I'm not saying either of these guys are "thugs", but I also certainly don't agree that the only way we're going anywhere is by actively recruiting fringe players with a history.[/quote]

Well said. I totally agree.

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[BleedingBLue]

Well, let's not get off into the whether or not weed is bad or not discussion. Suffice it to say whether you're 18 years old, 13 years old or 24 years old, you sign on to something knowing what the requirements are. In this case drug testing. You don't get to say it's not fair and need a second chance because you decided to reneg on something you'd previously agreed to. You know, actions have consequences. Or at least we should teach our kids they do. Too often we keep excusing bad behavior, which many times begets more bad behavior.

No, I'm not saying either of these guys are "thugs", but I also certainly don't agree that the only way we're going anywhere is by actively recruiting fringe players with a history.

Well said. I totally agree.

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I wasn't​ starting a weed is good weed is bad discussion. I was commenting on you calling them thugs because of what they have done, or been accused of doing. And show me the quote where I said the only way were going anywhere is with fringe players with a history. I didn't say that. All I'm saying is I don't think this should shut the door on guys that need second chances. Id be happy to get it done with 4 or 5 year guys but I'm also happy to take on some projects because not all will turn out this way. Obviously we have different opinions which is fine.

[TomCat88]

Then they are not guilty.

Assume team rules still affect them.


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Team rules such as?

[77matcat]

I believe they (team rules) exist, but I don't know what they are. As someone above pointed out I believe the school also has rules that are independent of team rules. Between the two not sure there is room to wiggle.

Being Colter appears to think this is a big deal, perhaps he can tell us.


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[iaafan]

If they're found not guilty or the charges are dismissed I'm not sure what team rule is out there that would cause them to be dismissed from the team or suspended since they would've done nothing wrong. Unless they broke another team rule. Without knowing what the MRTF has on them and if what has been in the media is accurate, then it's hard to say how this one will play out.

We've seen so many cases where athletes appear to be caught red-handed only to see them back on the field that it's now become foolish to think that any charge against an athlete is going to stick or cause their career to end.

I'm not sure what Colter said that has everyone worked up. If he said that what Hale and Gardenhire did on Choate's watch is a fireable offense, then he's just stating something everyone already knows. In fact, you don't have do something considered a fireable offense to get fired as a college football coach. You can do absolutely nothing wrong and get fired. So stating this is a fireable offense carries no weight.

[CelticCat]

So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


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I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.

You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?

[KittieKop]

So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


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I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.

You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?

I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?

[CelticCat]

That's a very black and white viewpoint. Many P5 or FBS schools have the same situation that we have, in which they are located in extremely rural areas. The support would be helping them acclimate to the area, to the culture. And who knows what else P5 schools have for these kids that aren't exactly NCAA kosher.

I'm not saying they needed support to know not to deal drugs, but schools do have support programs to help kids stay out of trouble.