Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby grizgirl on Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:51 pm

KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby grizgirl on Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:59 pm

I've yet to see or hear anything about a preliminary hearing date for Hale or Gardenhire. Not sure if that's because no media outlet has reported on it or if a date hasn't been set. If the latter, than you have to wonder what the delay is. The courts can't be that busy in Bozeman/Gallatin County, so I'm wondering if the county attorney has run into a legal snag.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby lutecat on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:46 pm

KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?

I think the train of thought is that support programs help people acclimatize and incorporate them into our "family" of Bozeman so that they don't feel lonely and uninvolved to the point that the "welcome face" is the guy from a similar background that you eventually "help him out" by dealing for him.

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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby KittieKop on Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:21 pm

lutecat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?

I think the train of thought is that support programs help people acclimatize and incorporate them into our "family" of Bozeman so that they don't feel lonely and uninvolved to the point that the "welcome face" is the guy from a similar background that you eventually "help him out" by dealing for him.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


To that extent, yes, I believe MSU has those support mechanisms in place and a pretty involved student athlete program.
"It was like a coordinated effort by the Missoulian and the police to bring UM Football program down..." eGriz 11/30/12

Now where did I leave my tinfoil hat?

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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby KittieKop on Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:32 pm

grizgirl wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.


So the lesson we should take from the fact these two young men have failed at two large universities is that we have somehow failed to support, guide and develop....whatever....them? One bad decision, its a mistake. Two is a pattern. I recognize the value in programs that help student athletes succeed. But it also depends on the student being an active particpant. Sometimes people fail because they make crappy decisions. Do you not think that's at least as likely as the theory that's its somehow MSU's fault for failing to give them enough that turned them to a life of crime, considering their already checkered background before coming here?
"It was like a coordinated effort by the Missoulian and the police to bring UM Football program down..." eGriz 11/30/12

Now where did I leave my tinfoil hat?

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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby TomCat88 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:50 pm

KittieKop wrote:
grizgirl wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.


So the lesson we should take from the fact these two young men have failed at two large universities is that we have somehow failed to support, guide and develop....whatever....them? One bad decision, its a mistake. Two is a pattern. I recognize the value in programs that help student athletes succeed. But it also depends on the student being an active particpant. Sometimes people fail because they make crappy decisions. Do you not think that's at least as likely as the theory that's its somehow MSU's fault for failing to give them enough that turned them to a life of crime, considering their already checkered background before coming here?

Do law enforcement agencies have support systems/programs for their employees?
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby spider on Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:50 pm

grizgirl wrote:I've yet to see or hear anything about a preliminary hearing date for Hale or Gardenhire. Not sure if that's because no media outlet has reported on it or if a date hasn't been set. If the latter, than you have to wonder what the delay is. The courts can't be that busy in Bozeman/Gallatin County, so I'm wondering if the county attorney has run into a legal snag.


Preliminary hearings are not required under Montana law. I doubt one will take place in either of these cases.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby blueandgoldblitz on Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:27 am

TomCat88 wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
grizgirl wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.


So the lesson we should take from the fact these two young men have failed at two large universities is that we have somehow failed to support, guide and develop....whatever....them? One bad decision, its a mistake. Two is a pattern. I recognize the value in programs that help student athletes succeed. But it also depends on the student being an active particpant. Sometimes people fail because they make crappy decisions. Do you not think that's at least as likely as the theory that's its somehow MSU's fault for failing to give them enough that turned them to a life of crime, considering their already checkered background before coming here?

Do law enforcement agencies have support systems/programs for their employees?


I can't speak for all of them, but I've heard of several that have pretty good support programs.
We could say TG makes the freshman wear pink thongs to every practice and you would say, "I'm so glad he left Missoula he tried that here and it didn't work either. LOL LMAF OMG LOL BAE" and whatever else you fruits over in Missoula say -Hi-Line
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby RobertCats on Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:33 pm

KittieKop wrote:
grizgirl wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.


So the lesson we should take from the fact these two young men have failed at two large universities is that we have somehow failed to support, guide and develop....whatever....them? One bad decision, its a mistake. Two is a pattern. I recognize the value in programs that help student athletes succeed. But it also depends on the student being an active particpant. Sometimes people fail because they make crappy decisions. Do you not think that's at least as likely as the theory that's its somehow MSU's fault for failing to give them enough that turned them to a life of crime, considering their already checkered background before coming here?


Exactly! There is no accountability with youth anymore. The University of Florida must REALLY have a lack of support programs since they failed Aaron Hernandez so bad.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby KittieKop on Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:45 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
grizgirl wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.


So the lesson we should take from the fact these two young men have failed at two large universities is that we have somehow failed to support, guide and develop....whatever....them? One bad decision, its a mistake. Two is a pattern. I recognize the value in programs that help student athletes succeed. But it also depends on the student being an active particpant. Sometimes people fail because they make crappy decisions. Do you not think that's at least as likely as the theory that's its somehow MSU's fault for failing to give them enough that turned them to a life of crime, considering their already checkered background before coming here?

Do law enforcement agencies have support systems/programs for their employees?


I'll answer yes, but like football programs, I imagine it will vary widely from place to place. A good hiring/intake process is the first, most important step (I'll tie that up in a minute), but robust training, mentoring, EAP programs, etc.

But like many jobs - I assume MSU has a screening process not just for a recruit's football skills, but for them as a person. You can have whatever support programs you want in place, but if there's a problem in a recruit's "make up", horrible instability in their personal/family life, just not being suited for a major life change (like moving from urban Los Angeles to rural Montana) - not having the social skills, mental make up, resiliency to come here, the university shouldn't be taking them in. Its like taking the square peg in the round hole, and we're going to make it fit if we just try hard enough, find bigger and difference shaped hammers.

Bottom line - bring in the people you think are best suited for your program (or your office/profession). Most talented doesn't always mean best fit. Get the best people in positions, then yes, have all those mechanisms in place to support them and help them succeed. But if you don't put the right people in place to begin with, programs and support mechanisms aren't going to fix a poor selection process.
"It was like a coordinated effort by the Missoulian and the police to bring UM Football program down..." eGriz 11/30/12

Now where did I leave my tinfoil hat?

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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby ilovethecats on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:06 pm

KittieKop wrote:
grizgirl wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.


So the lesson we should take from the fact these two young men have failed at two large universities is that we have somehow failed to support, guide and develop....whatever....them? One bad decision, its a mistake. Two is a pattern. I recognize the value in programs that help student athletes succeed. But it also depends on the student being an active particpant. Sometimes people fail because they make crappy decisions. Do you not think that's at least as likely as the theory that's its somehow MSU's fault for failing to give them enough that turned them to a life of crime, considering their already checkered background before coming here?

why does it have to be one or the other? everything is not black and white.

it is entirely possible that these kids are idiots and no support system could have helped them. but just because nothing could have helped these two (hypothetical) that isn't to say we can't do a better job of creating a system around these kids that might help others. my guess is for every guy out there that is a complete screw-up, a complete lost-cause, a kid that can't be helped in any way....there are other "tweeners", kids who make bad decisions and appear to be idiots but can be helped with the right support.

and let's be clear, a support system can come in many fashions. it doesn't have to be the university. it could come in many forms including their coaches, teammates, classmates, hell, even other members of the community. this doesn't excuse bad behavior. you make ****** decisions you live with ****** consequences. but that doesn't mean that improvements can't be made in other areas to help avoid scenarios like this playing out all over again.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby TomCat88 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:04 pm

KittieKop wrote:
TomCat88 wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
grizgirl wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.


So the lesson we should take from the fact these two young men have failed at two large universities is that we have somehow failed to support, guide and develop....whatever....them? One bad decision, its a mistake. Two is a pattern. I recognize the value in programs that help student athletes succeed. But it also depends on the student being an active particpant. Sometimes people fail because they make crappy decisions. Do you not think that's at least as likely as the theory that's its somehow MSU's fault for failing to give them enough that turned them to a life of crime, considering their already checkered background before coming here?

Do law enforcement agencies have support systems/programs for their employees?


I'll answer yes, but like football programs, I imagine it will vary widely from place to place. A good hiring/intake process is the first, most important step (I'll tie that up in a minute), but robust training, mentoring, EAP programs, etc.

But like many jobs - I assume MSU has a screening process not just for a recruit's football skills, but for them as a person. You can have whatever support programs you want in place, but if there's a problem in a recruit's "make up", horrible instability in their personal/family life, just not being suited for a major life change (like moving from urban Los Angeles to rural Montana) - not having the social skills, mental make up, resiliency to come here, the university shouldn't be taking them in. Its like taking the square peg in the round hole, and we're going to make it fit if we just try hard enough, find bigger and difference shaped hammers.

Bottom line - bring in the people you think are best suited for your program (or your office/profession). Most talented doesn't always mean best fit. Get the best people in positions, then yes, have all those mechanisms in place to support them and help them succeed. But if you don't put the right people in place to begin with, programs and support mechanisms aren't going to fix a poor selection process.

While you didn't come right out and say it, it sounds like you got what I'm getting at.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby KittieKop on Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:18 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
grizgirl wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


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I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.


So the lesson we should take from the fact these two young men have failed at two large universities is that we have somehow failed to support, guide and develop....whatever....them? One bad decision, its a mistake. Two is a pattern. I recognize the value in programs that help student athletes succeed. But it also depends on the student being an active particpant. Sometimes people fail because they make crappy decisions. Do you not think that's at least as likely as the theory that's its somehow MSU's fault for failing to give them enough that turned them to a life of crime, considering their already checkered background before coming here?

why does it have to be one or the other? everything is not black and white.

it is entirely possible that these kids are idiots and no support system could have helped them. but just because nothing could have helped these two (hypothetical) that isn't to say we can't do a better job of creating a system around these kids that might help others. my guess is for every guy out there that is a complete screw-up, a complete lost-cause, a kid that can't be helped in any way....there are other "tweeners", kids who make bad decisions and appear to be idiots but can be helped with the right support.

and let's be clear, a support system can come in many fashions. it doesn't have to be the university. it could come in many forms including their coaches, teammates, classmates, hell, even other members of the community. this doesn't excuse bad behavior. you make ****** decisions you live with ****** consequences. but that doesn't mean that improvements can't be made in other areas to help avoid scenarios like this playing out all over again.


I think we agree. Read my last reply. It has much more to do with selecting the right people to be part of your program. There's nothing wrong with taking a chance on "tweeners", if you do your homework and are assured they're a fit for your situation, and yes, the programs are in place to help them succeed. What I'm saying is no one should have some expectation that anyone can build a magical system of enough resources, coaches, babysitters, psychiatrists, nutritionists and mediums that you can grab rehab projects who will suddenly succeed where they've failed before, without an adequate selection process. Does anything think Garrett Marino failed at MSU because MSU failed to support him enough to help him succeed? Yes, I'm sure there are instances where the institution doesn't do everything it can to help a student succeed. But people should acknowledge that sometimes its the students who simply don't hold up their end of the bargain for whatever reason as well. And FWIW, student athletes have far, far, far more resources and support available to them than the average freshman coming into a university. If there' an opportunity to change and improve, its on a university-wide scale.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby PHAT CAT on Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:02 am

Do you have any friends and I mean real friends, who don't have the same skin color as you? I'm still happy coach brought these fellas here to play. It sucks they had to have it end this way. They messed up. But for some dillhole to say kids from LA can't fit in, shows what a narrow thinking douche you truly are. I hate fans like you Kity.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby utucats on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:00 am

Some craziness going on in this thread. From my skim, through I've read that some argue that perhaps our coach is to blame in some way? How much Xanax did coach sell? This is the same BS that happened with Kramer. These coaches have 100+ kids involved in their program and if one or two screw up while the overwhelming majority are on the straight and narrow that means it on the coach? Thought we hired a coach, not a babysitter. These young men are old enough to understand consequences and make their own decisions. Hold them accountable and no one else. My impression of coach is favorable based upon his actions and that will not change based upon other people's actions.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby onceacat on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:40 am

KittieKop wrote:
ilovethecats wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
grizgirl wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
CelticCat wrote:
KittieKop wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote:So for those on here saying Choate knew who these kids were.

He knew they were drug dealers?

Yeah this sucks. It's a black eye all around but it doesn't mean Choate is gone, doesn't mean his leash is shorter. It doesn't mean we will not take second chances. All it means is we need a better support network for the guys we do bring in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but the reason these two started slinging prescription drugs on the side is because the university didn't "support" them enough? That's like saying a guy's screwed up because his momma didn't breastfeed him when he was a baby. Life is all about choices, these two are a couple steps into a series of really crappy ones. Its not because MSU didn't support them.

On a related note, no, not everyone is entitled to a second chance either.

For the record, no, Choate doesn't deserve to be gone because of this. But I hope he takes this as an opportunity to improve his player picker, 'cause it was kinda broken in this instance.


You don't think any of the P5 schools have extra support programs in place for athletes for this purpose?


I don't honestly know what directed program MSU has in place, or what any of the P5 programs may have. But we need a support program to keep our athlete's from dealing drugs on the side?!?


Support programs are the norm in our society, especially in places that hire and staff themselves in large numbers of employees. There are support and assistant programs at most corporations and government agencies. There's even a support program for NFL rookies. They have drug and alcohol programs, health and wellness programs, just to name a couple. Today's corporations and agencies want the people they hire to succeed and understand that investments into support programs pays off in the long run. So they may seem unnecessary to you, but the people in power have found them to be profitable.


So the lesson we should take from the fact these two young men have failed at two large universities is that we have somehow failed to support, guide and develop....whatever....them? One bad decision, its a mistake. Two is a pattern. I recognize the value in programs that help student athletes succeed. But it also depends on the student being an active particpant. Sometimes people fail because they make crappy decisions. Do you not think that's at least as likely as the theory that's its somehow MSU's fault for failing to give them enough that turned them to a life of crime, considering their already checkered background before coming here?

why does it have to be one or the other? everything is not black and white.

it is entirely possible that these kids are idiots and no support system could have helped them. but just because nothing could have helped these two (hypothetical) that isn't to say we can't do a better job of creating a system around these kids that might help others. my guess is for every guy out there that is a complete screw-up, a complete lost-cause, a kid that can't be helped in any way....there are other "tweeners", kids who make bad decisions and appear to be idiots but can be helped with the right support.

and let's be clear, a support system can come in many fashions. it doesn't have to be the university. it could come in many forms including their coaches, teammates, classmates, hell, even other members of the community. this doesn't excuse bad behavior. you make ****** decisions you live with ****** consequences. but that doesn't mean that improvements can't be made in other areas to help avoid scenarios like this playing out all over again.


I think we agree. Read my last reply. It has much more to do with selecting the right people to be part of your program. There's nothing wrong with taking a chance on "tweeners", if you do your homework and are assured they're a fit for your situation, and yes, the programs are in place to help them succeed. What I'm saying is no one should have some expectation that anyone can build a magical system of enough resources, coaches, babysitters, psychiatrists, nutritionists and mediums that you can grab rehab projects who will suddenly succeed where they've failed before, without an adequate selection process. Does anything think Garrett Marino failed at MSU because MSU failed to support him enough to help him succeed? Yes, I'm sure there are instances where the institution doesn't do everything it can to help a student succeed. But people should acknowledge that sometimes its the students who simply don't hold up their end of the bargain for whatever reason as well. And FWIW, student athletes have far, far, far more resources and support available to them than the average freshman coming into a university. If there' an opportunity to change and improve, its on a university-wide scale.


This has sort of gotten off track, if you ask me. Support systems are as much for protecting the university or an employer as they are about helping the kids. It probably costs $10k to recruit a kid, and thats before he's offered a scholarship. If something goes wrong, you are out all the costs of recruiting, plus the dollar value of the scholarship PLUS the opportunity cost of the next kid in line for that roster spot.

Those support systems are important for the kid too. Bozeman is in many ways a difficult see to a kid from SoCal or Texas. If we want to produce great players & great guys, having the right support networks are critical.

And some guys (and gals) will still screw up. Its important for the university and team to understand what went wrong and what they can do better, understanding that at the end of the day, teenagers (and young 20 somethings) do really stupid stuff that no amount of intervention is ever going to fix.

Not sure why it has to be either/or. Should be both/and.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby 77matcat on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:00 pm

utucats wrote:Some craziness going on in this thread. From my skim, through I've read that some argue that perhaps our coach is to blame in some way? How much Xanax did coach sell? This is the same BS that happened with Kramer. These coaches have 100+ kids involved in their program and if one or two screw up while the overwhelming majority are on the straight and narrow that means it on the coach? Thought we hired a coach, not a babysitter. These young men are old enough to understand consequences and make their own decisions. Hold them accountable and no one else. My impression of coach is favorable based upon his actions and that will not change based upon other people's actions.


Well said.


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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby kmax on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:16 am

PHAT CAT wrote:Do you have any friends and I mean real friends, who don't have the same skin color as you? I'm still happy coach brought these fellas here to play. It sucks they had to have it end this way. They messed up. But for some dillhole to say kids from LA can't fit in, shows what a narrow thinking douche you truly are. I hate fans like you Kity.

This is completely unnecessary and uncalled for, cool it PHAT CAT. Keep things to the topic and the conversation at hand or just stay out of it. Debate ideas and points of view all you like, but don't attack the poster. If you don't like a poster, please use the ignore function that is available here.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby GoldstoneCat on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:10 am

utucats wrote:Some craziness going on in this thread. From my skim, through I've read that some argue that perhaps our coach is to blame in some way? How much Xanax did coach sell? This is the same BS that happened with Kramer. These coaches have 100+ kids involved in their program and if one or two screw up while the overwhelming majority are on the straight and narrow that means it on the coach? Thought we hired a coach, not a babysitter. These young men are old enough to understand consequences and make their own decisions. Hold them accountable and no one else. My impression of coach is favorable based upon his actions and that will not change based upon other people's actions.

Partially, but don't totally, agree with you here. The kids need to be held accountable for their decision to come here and peddle Xanax from their apartment (if that's indeed what happened, case must play out). And I tend to agree that the head coach isn't responsible for the good or bad decisions all 100 plus players on the team make. However, he has to bear some responsibility, and here's my reasons for thinking that way. First, when he was hired and any time anybody asked him since, in regard to recruiting, he's given a fairly lengthy answer about recruiting great players and "high character young men to represent the program and the community." Tier 1 Carnegie research institution, all that, we have all listened to and watched those clips over and over again (thanks again to Colter for all the content!). You cannot make those statements, and then have this happen so soon. Granted, a coach can't know the personality and issues and background of every single recruit, and these things DO happen from time to time. But in this specific case, he did know the background on these guys, knew them fairly well personally I'd guess, and still brought them in. Fine, I'm not opposed to giving someone a second chance, and Bozeman is a long way removed from cities on the west coast; perhaps a person has a chance to come here and find their way, their focus, etc. The fact is that these guys had issues with drugs in their recent past, we brought them in, the head coach basically vouched for them as he knew them personally, and they screwed up almost immediately (allegedly). Coach Choate has to shoulder some blame on this. Not saying he should be fired, not saying he should even be reprimanded, just cautioning all of us, myself included, to not just blithely accept words like "high character young men." Those words need to be backed up by action, and in this case they weren't.
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Re: Hale and Gardenhire Gone...

Postby iaafan on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:13 am

You can't have it happen consistently or have it form a pattern. Right now this is random. A coach can be in one place for 10 years and have a spate of bad activity by his players in the first year, the 5th year or the tenth year. That's just the way it goes and that's random. You can't extrapolate very much this early in Choate's career.
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