Lance Armstrong ... doping

[SonomaCat]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-tea ... -1.1095146

We haven't had a thread on this for awhile, so I guess the timing is decent.

[SonomaCat]

If we want to reference back to the old discussions:

http://www.bobcatnation.com/bobcatbb/vi ... 18&t=26960

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=24366&hilit=armstrong

[MashTun]

Can't imagine they'll be looking at any information which hasn't been looked at before. We'll see if anything new comes to light.

The testimony I'd be interested in hearing would be George Hincapie's(rode with Lance on all his tour wins). He gave testimony in the last go around, with nothing coming of that investigation. Don't believe George had been questioned formally before. Not that one person's comment's would change everything, but George was important part of all the US Postal and Discovery winning teams.

[ilovethecats]

don't think it'll make much of a difference on this board at least. people will believe what they want regardless of the outcome of this investigation i think.

[gtapp]

don't think it'll make much of a difference on this board at least. people will believe what they want regardless of the outcome of this investigation i think.

Everyone has heard so much of the drug abuse stories that everyone in all sports is suspect! Why don't we just ignore it, assume everyone does it and stop worring about it? In body building and power lifting EVERYONE in the top 100 uses heavy amounts. Everyone knows it, everyone accepts it and no one seems to care!

[ilovethecats]

don't think it'll make much of a difference on this board at least. people will believe what they want regardless of the outcome of this investigation i think.

Everyone has heard so much of the drug abuse stories that everyone in all sports is suspect! Why don't we just ignore it, assume everyone does it and stop worring about it? In body building and power lifting EVERYONE in the top 100 uses heavy amounts. Everyone knows it, everyone accepts it and no one seems to care!

this is pretty much my take on it too tapp.

[rollo_tumasi]

Here's my take as a cycling fan that goes back to the mid 80's(LeMond era). Did Armstrong use PED's-Probably. Did he cheat...not necessarily. Cycling is a sport where if you're not cheating, you're not trying. I would say 90-95% of the top end riders in the world are using something at sometime throughout the year. The riders have always been ahead of the testers in what they use, how they use it, & especially when they use it. I also believe the cycling federation realizes that if they were to really crack down, they would kill their own sport...so a good-ole boy system has always been in place. Why does this happen at all, because the sport of professional cycling is maybe the hardest endurance sport in the planet, and in reality is too hard for human beings to perform at any consistent level. If cycling wants to stay relevant in the world of sports it needs to stay entertaining, but the courses are too long or too hard, or there is not enough recovery between stages to ensure entertaining races(no one want to watch riders riding along in big groups with no attacks, because they are too tired)...which leads to the drug use & the looking the other way at the sport in general by all involved. So if you assume that the playing field was level for professional cycling, then what Armstrong accomplished is just as equally mind blowing. If they find him guilty & strip him of all of his titles...then they will be giving those titles to the 2nd placers who were all likely dopers as well. I still love the sport, no matter whats going on behind the scenes, due to the beauty & strategy of it.

[ilovethecats]

Here's my take as a cycling fan that goes back to the mid 80's(LeMond era). Did Armstrong use PED's-Probably. Did he cheat...not necessarily. Cycling is a sport where if you're not cheating, you're not trying. I would say 90-95% of the top end riders in the world are using something at sometime throughout the year. The riders have always been ahead of the testers in what they use, how they use it, & especially when they use it. I also believe the cycling federation realizes that if they were to really crack down, they would kill their own sport...so a good-ole boy system has always been in place. Why does this happen at all, because the sport of professional cycling is maybe the hardest endurance sport in the planet, and in reality is too hard for human beings to perform at any consistent level. If cycling wants to stay relevant in the world of sports it needs to stay entertaining, but the courses are too long or too hard, or there is not enough recovery between stages to ensure entertaining races(no one want to watch riders riding along in big groups with no attacks, because they are too tired)...which leads to the drug use & the looking the other way at the sport in general by all involved. So if you assume that the playing field was level for professional cycling, then what Armstrong accomplished is just as equally mind blowing. If they find him guilty & strip him of all of his titles...then they will be giving those titles to the 2nd placers who were all likely dopers as well. I still love the sport, no matter whats going on behind the scenes, due to the beauty & strategy of it.

that's a great post and i agree. we have had some spirited debates here and i am one who always assumed he was cheating. i stand by that and think he'll be stripped of his titles. but as tapp said, and you just stated as well....everyone in the sport is doing it. i don't have a problem with it. i could just never buy into the idea that 98% of the people were using enhancers....but the most dominating figure of all never touched them. i wanted to believe it.....but just couldn't.

[TIrwin24]

Here's my take as a cycling fan that goes back to the mid 80's(LeMond era). Did Armstrong use PED's-Probably. Did he cheat...not necessarily. Cycling is a sport where if you're not cheating, you're not trying. I would say 90-95% of the top end riders in the world are using something at sometime throughout the year. The riders have always been ahead of the testers in what they use, how they use it, & especially when they use it. I also believe the cycling federation realizes that if they were to really crack down, they would kill their own sport...so a good-ole boy system has always been in place. Why does this happen at all, because the sport of professional cycling is maybe the hardest endurance sport in the planet, and in reality is too hard for human beings to perform at any consistent level. If cycling wants to stay relevant in the world of sports it needs to stay entertaining, but the courses are too long or too hard, or there is not enough recovery between stages to ensure entertaining races(no one want to watch riders riding along in big groups with no attacks, because they are too tired)...which leads to the drug use & the looking the other way at the sport in general by all involved. So if you assume that the playing field was level for professional cycling, then what Armstrong accomplished is just as equally mind blowing. If they find him guilty & strip him of all of his titles...then they will be giving those titles to the 2nd placers who were all likely dopers as well. I still love the sport, no matter whats going on behind the scenes, due to the beauty & strategy of it.

I agree, great post.
On the opposite side of the spectrum of ILTC, I believe that there are those athletes out there that are simply better at some sports, and I think that Armstrong was simply a better rider than anybody else.

Now, add that to the fact that he probably was taking stuff not yet banned by the cycling world so now you've got an athlete who is absolutely phenomenal at cycling and people are pissed because they can't beat him.

Athletes and science are typically a couple of steps ahead of the testing organizations, (see: Bill Romanoski, Barry Bonds, McGuire, etc.) and who's to stop them with experimenting with different combinations of things to somehow enhance their performance?

Fact of the matter is; he won all the time, he did so without breaking any laws, (as proven many times over by his repeated negative results) and people simply need to accept it.

[TIrwin24]

don't think it'll make much of a difference on this board at least. people will believe what they want regardless of the outcome of this investigation i think.

Everyone has heard so much of the drug abuse stories that everyone in all sports is suspect! Why don't we just ignore it, assume everyone does it and stop worring about it? In body building and power lifting EVERYONE in the top 100 uses heavy amounts. Everyone knows it, everyone accepts it and no one seems to care!

Because weight lifting and body building isn't as mainstream in the world sports arena.

With these higher profile sports such as baseball, football, cycling, basketball, etc. there is always a public need for these athletes to somehow be responsible and display a "role model" characteristic. With that comes an unannounced duty for the athlete to portray themselves as healthy, competitive and respectful.

[wbtfg]

With these higher profile sports such as baseball, football, cycling, basketball, etc.

[youtube][/youtube]

[LTown Cat]

With these higher profile sports such as baseball, football, cycling, basketball, etc.

[youtube][/youtube]

[ilovethecats]

Fact of the matter is; he won all the time, he did so without breaking any laws, (as proven many times over by his repeated negative results) and people simply need to accept it.

so i assume that if this investigation is done and they conclude he was cheating and strips him of his titles...you'll change your stance and accept it? i just have always believed he was cheating and i probably always will. just like i'll always believe oj did it....even though he was deemed not guilty and i should probably just accept that. but i can't.

[gtapp]

Here's my take as a cycling fan that goes back to the mid 80's(LeMond era). Did Armstrong use PED's-Probably. Did he cheat...not necessarily. Cycling is a sport where if you're not cheating, you're not trying. I would say 90-95% of the top end riders in the world are using something at sometime throughout the year. The riders have always been ahead of the testers in what they use, how they use it, & especially when they use it. I also believe the cycling federation realizes that if they were to really crack down, they would kill their own sport...so a good-ole boy system has always been in place. Why does this happen at all, because the sport of professional cycling is maybe the hardest endurance sport in the planet, and in reality is too hard for human beings to perform at any consistent level. If cycling wants to stay relevant in the world of sports it needs to stay entertaining, but the courses are too long or too hard, or there is not enough recovery between stages to ensure entertaining races(no one want to watch riders riding along in big groups with no attacks, because they are too tired)...which leads to the drug use & the looking the other way at the sport in general by all involved. So if you assume that the playing field was level for professional cycling, then what Armstrong accomplished is just as equally mind blowing. If they find him guilty & strip him of all of his titles...then they will be giving those titles to the 2nd placers who were all likely dopers as well. I still love the sport, no matter whats going on behind the scenes, due to the beauty & strategy of it.

Good points and I believe they also apply to baseball. If no one in baseball took steroids home runs would go down, scoring would go down and excitment would go down. Baseball knows this and guess what, still very little testing. Baseball needs steroids to be entertaining or at least that could be the perception by the owners!

[gtapp]

Here's my take as a cycling fan that goes back to the mid 80's(LeMond era). Did Armstrong use PED's-Probably. Did he cheat...not necessarily. Cycling is a sport where if you're not cheating, you're not trying. I would say 90-95% of the top end riders in the world are using something at sometime throughout the year. The riders have always been ahead of the testers in what they use, how they use it, & especially when they use it. I also believe the cycling federation realizes that if they were to really crack down, they would kill their own sport...so a good-ole boy system has always been in place. Why does this happen at all, because the sport of professional cycling is maybe the hardest endurance sport in the planet, and in reality is too hard for human beings to perform at any consistent level. If cycling wants to stay relevant in the world of sports it needs to stay entertaining, but the courses are too long or too hard, or there is not enough recovery between stages to ensure entertaining races(no one want to watch riders riding along in big groups with no attacks, because they are too tired)...which leads to the drug use & the looking the other way at the sport in general by all involved. So if you assume that the playing field was level for professional cycling, then what Armstrong accomplished is just as equally mind blowing. If they find him guilty & strip him of all of his titles...then they will be giving those titles to the 2nd placers who were all likely dopers as well. I still love the sport, no matter whats going on behind the scenes, due to the beauty & strategy of it.

I agree, great post.
On the opposite side of the spectrum of ILTC, I believe that there are those athletes out there that are simply better at some sports, and I think that Armstrong was simply a better rider than anybody else.

Now, add that to the fact that he probably was taking stuff not yet banned by the cycling world so now you've got an athlete who is absolutely phenomenal at cycling and people are pissed because they can't beat him.

Athletes and science are typically a couple of steps ahead of the testing organizations, (see: Bill Romanoski, Barry Bonds, McGuire, etc.) and who's to stop them with experimenting with different combinations of things to somehow enhance their performance?

Fact of the matter is; he won all the time, he did so without breaking any laws, (as proven many times over by his repeated negative results) and people simply need to accept it.

I get the impression that some people think that steroids do all the work. Like you could take an overweight couch potato and put him on steroids and he would win the MVP. All these guys are phenominal athletes to begin with and are the best of the best without any help. The juice just keeps them at the top and gets them through injnury and fatigue. You don't go from the 100th best cycler in the world to number one just by taking steroids!

[gtapp]

don't think it'll make much of a difference on this board at least. people will believe what they want regardless of the outcome of this investigation i think.

Everyone has heard so much of the drug abuse stories that everyone in all sports is suspect! Why don't we just ignore it, assume everyone does it and stop worring about it? In body building and power lifting EVERYONE in the top 100 uses heavy amounts. Everyone knows it, everyone accepts it and no one seems to care!

Because weight lifting and body building isn't as mainstream in the world sports arena.

With these higher profile sports such as baseball, football, cycling, basketball, etc. there is always a public need for these athletes to somehow be responsible and display a "role model" characteristic. With that comes an unannounced duty for the athlete to portray themselves as healthy, competitive and respectful.

I never met anyone who cared if an athlete was Healthy or respectful, We cheer for the best. Look at how Tiger is still treated and we all knew McQuire and Bonds were on the juice but they still got a lot of love!

[TIrwin24]

Fact of the matter is; he won all the time, he did so without breaking any laws, (as proven many times over by his repeated negative results) and people simply need to accept it.

so i assume that if this investigation is done and they conclude he was cheating and strips him of his titles...you'll change your stance and accept it? i just have always believed he was cheating and i probably always will. just like i'll always believe oj did it....even though he was deemed not guilty and i should probably just accept that. but i can't.

If Armstrong is found to have cheated and to have broken cycling laws that were in place at the time during his racing career, I would accept it and change my opinion of him.

Until that happens, and the investigators actually PROVE that he was doping illegally, Armstrong is by all accounts innocent.

[SonomaCat]

Until that happens, and the investigators actually PROVE that he was doping illegally, Armstrong is by all accounts innocent.

So applying that logic, you apparently believe that OJ was "innocent?"

[MashTun]

Here's my take as a cycling fan that goes back to the mid 80's(LeMond era). Did Armstrong use PED's-Probably. Did he cheat...not necessarily. Cycling is a sport where if you're not cheating, you're not trying. I would say 90-95% of the top end riders in the world are using something at sometime throughout the year. The riders have always been ahead of the testers in what they use, how they use it, & especially when they use it. I also believe the cycling federation realizes that if they were to really crack down, they would kill their own sport...so a good-ole boy system has always been in place. Why does this happen at all, because the sport of professional cycling is maybe the hardest endurance sport in the planet, and in reality is too hard for human beings to perform at any consistent level. If cycling wants to stay relevant in the world of sports it needs to stay entertaining, but the courses are too long or too hard, or there is not enough recovery between stages to ensure entertaining races(no one want to watch riders riding along in big groups with no attacks, because they are too tired)...which leads to the drug use & the looking the other way at the sport in general by all involved. So if you assume that the playing field was level for professional cycling, then what Armstrong accomplished is just as equally mind blowing. If they find him guilty & strip him of all of his titles...then they will be giving those titles to the 2nd placers who were all likely dopers as well. I still love the sport, no matter whats going on behind the scenes, due to the beauty & strategy of it.

Good points and I believe they also apply to baseball. If no one in baseball took steroids home runs would go down, scoring would go down and excitment would go down. Baseball knows this and guess what, still very little testing. Baseball needs steroids to be entertaining or at least that could be the perception by the owners!

Comparing the amount of testing between baseball and cycling is a joke. Until baseball tests repeatedly OFF season as well as in season, I addition to when a player has a great performance, as cycling DOES, the comparison is pointless, apple and an orange.

[MashTun]

Until that happens, and the investigators actually PROVE that he was doping illegally, Armstrong is by all accounts innocent.

So applying that logic, you apparently believe that OJ was "innocent?"

A rather specious argument BAC, nice try though.

As if some 500 negative results of Armstrong's tests mean nothing.