Helena High beats Hellgate by forfeit

[John K]

Most of my educational career was in Georgia where zones are strictly enforced for obvious reasons that will remain unsaid. It always amazed me how small high schools enrollment wise could play up two divisions and routinely beat those schools so thoroughly. Lincoln County, Washington County, Buford and now Calhoun can play up two classifications and stomp the living daylights out of the larger schools and the enrollment disparity just blew me away. When a school with 150 to 350 kids would put a beatdown on a school with 2500 kids I always thought about what goes on out here in Montana. I'm trying to think of the Montana kids in the NFL right now and it seems to me the majority of them are from the smaller schools enrollment wise. Anderson and Carpenter are the only AA kids I can think of off the top of my head. I was raised during the Big 32 and looking at just the single A football playoffs this year has me in absolute disgust. Sidney travels to Whitefish (557 miles), Columbia Falls travels to Havre (more than 250 miles), Butte Central to Miles City (370 miles) and Billings Central to Dillon (250 miles) for the quarterfinals!!!! As there are more than a few snarky comments to the line of reasoning "How can a big school forfeit?" all I can say is to me it looks like there's one school in this state with administrators with just a bit of common sense. Gawd, what a joke the MHSA has become.

I'm really not intending to be snarky, but I have no idea what point(s) you're trying to make? Why do you believe that the MSHA has become a joke? Do you think there should be fewer classifications, so that there would be less travel involved for the football playoffs? If that's your point, I don't think that would necessarily reduce travel significantly. The only way you could reduce travel very much, is if you set up the playoff brackets on a regional basis. But regardless of that, what does that have to do with Hellgate forfeiting two games? Why do you say that Missoula is the only school district with common sense? Because they allow open enrollment? Or because they chose to forfeit those two games? Again, I don't get the connection between that issue, and the issue of travel for football playoff games? Are you saying that they forfeited two road games to avoid travel? Can you help me to connect the dots?

[Cat Grad]

Most of my educational career was in Georgia where zones are strictly enforced for obvious reasons that will remain unsaid. It always amazed me how small high schools enrollment wise could play up two divisions and routinely beat those schools so thoroughly. Lincoln County, Washington County, Buford and now Calhoun can play up two classifications and stomp the living daylights out of the larger schools and the enrollment disparity just blew me away. When a school with 150 to 350 kids would put a beatdown on a school with 2500 kids I always thought about what goes on out here in Montana. I'm trying to think of the Montana kids in the NFL right now and it seems to me the majority of them are from the smaller schools enrollment wise. Anderson and Carpenter are the only AA kids I can think of off the top of my head. I was raised during the Big 32 and looking at just the single A football playoffs this year has me in absolute disgust. Sidney travels to Whitefish (557 miles), Columbia Falls travels to Havre (more than 250 miles), Butte Central to Miles City (370 miles) and Billings Central to Dillon (250 miles) for the quarterfinals!!!! As there are more than a few snarky comments to the line of reasoning "How can a big school forfeit?" all I can say is to me it looks like there's one school in this state with administrators with just a bit of common sense. Gawd, what a joke the MHSA has become.

I'm really not intending to be snarky, but I have no idea what point(s) you're trying to make? Why do you believe that the MSHA has become a joke? Do you think there should be fewer classifications, so that there would be less travel involved for the football playoffs? If that's your point, I don't think that would necessarily reduce travel significantly. The only way you could reduce travel very much, is if you set up the playoff brackets on a regional basis. But regardless of that, what does that have to do with Hellgate forfeiting two games? Why do you say that Missoula is the only school district with common sense? Because they allow open enrollment? Or because they chose to forfeit those two games? Again, I don't get the connection between that issue, and the issue of travel for football playoff games? Are you saying that they forfeited two road games to avoid travel? Can you help me to connect the dots?

I know better but I will respond one time. A month ago I watched a high school in Montana's second largest classification play a "team" sport, football, in which six kids played every snap on offense, defense and special teams until late in the fourth quarter. The team they beat had a game where eleven kids caught balls one game. Now when you factor in the travel for a group of 14, 15 and 16 year old kids on a dang bus, staying overnight for early season nonconference games and then hit the playoffs with this asinine travel? Simply put, Hellgate could have fielded a "team" of 14 to 16 year old kids but their coaches and administrators understood there's a very significant health issue such as the "team" that may possibly win their last three games of the year with two of the six kids on the roster who plays virtually every snap who are now 19 years of age. It's as ridiculous as colleges having to play predominately mormon teams.

[John K]

Most of my educational career was in Georgia where zones are strictly enforced for obvious reasons that will remain unsaid. It always amazed me how small high schools enrollment wise could play up two divisions and routinely beat those schools so thoroughly. Lincoln County, Washington County, Buford and now Calhoun can play up two classifications and stomp the living daylights out of the larger schools and the enrollment disparity just blew me away. When a school with 150 to 350 kids would put a beatdown on a school with 2500 kids I always thought about what goes on out here in Montana. I'm trying to think of the Montana kids in the NFL right now and it seems to me the majority of them are from the smaller schools enrollment wise. Anderson and Carpenter are the only AA kids I can think of off the top of my head. I was raised during the Big 32 and looking at just the single A football playoffs this year has me in absolute disgust. Sidney travels to Whitefish (557 miles), Columbia Falls travels to Havre (more than 250 miles), Butte Central to Miles City (370 miles) and Billings Central to Dillon (250 miles) for the quarterfinals!!!! As there are more than a few snarky comments to the line of reasoning "How can a big school forfeit?" all I can say is to me it looks like there's one school in this state with administrators with just a bit of common sense. Gawd, what a joke the MHSA has become.

I'm really not intending to be snarky, but I have no idea what point(s) you're trying to make? Why do you believe that the MSHA has become a joke? Do you think there should be fewer classifications, so that there would be less travel involved for the football playoffs? If that's your point, I don't think that would necessarily reduce travel significantly. The only way you could reduce travel very much, is if you set up the playoff brackets on a regional basis. But regardless of that, what does that have to do with Hellgate forfeiting two games? Why do you say that Missoula is the only school district with common sense? Because they allow open enrollment? Or because they chose to forfeit those two games? Again, I don't get the connection between that issue, and the issue of travel for football playoff games? Are you saying that they forfeited two road games to avoid travel? Can you help me to connect the dots?

I know better but I will respond one time. A month ago I watched a high school in Montana's second largest classification play a "team" sport, football, in which six kids played every snap on offense, defense and special teams until late in the fourth quarter. The team they beat had a game where eleven kids caught balls one game. Now when you factor in the travel for a group of 14, 15 and 16 year old kids on a dang bus, staying overnight for early season nonconference games and then hit the playoffs with this asinine travel? Simply put, Hellgate could have fielded a "team" of 14 to 16 year old kids but their coaches and administrators understood there's a very significant health issue such as the "team" that may possibly win their last three games of the year with two of the six kids on the roster who plays virtually every snap who are now 19 years of age. It's as ridiculous as colleges having to play predominately mormon teams.

Thanks for your response. I now understand your position more clearly, although I'm not sure how you would remedy these issues. Regarding the travel for football playoffs, I don't think it's really avoidable. Montana is a big state. Even if you tried to structure the brackets on a regional basis, there's still going to be a lot of travel involved. As for Hellgate forfeiting those two games, maybe it was the right decision under the circumstances. I just don't understand how a AA school could have such low participation for football, that they could find themselves in that position. If that's mostly due to permissive transfers/recruiting, then I'd say the Missoula school district probably needs to take a very hard look at their policies, because it should be an embarrassment to the district that one of their high schools had to forfeit two games. As for the two Class A schools that you're talking about, It's still a bit difficult to decipher your meaning, but I presume you're alluding to a significant disparity in the level of participation between the two schools in question. Again though, what is your solution? Do you believe the school with smaller numbers should be allowed to drop down to Class B, even if their enrollment was well above the A/B threshold? You also take issue with teams traveling great distances for non-conference games, but once again, if you want to play NC games, how are you going to avoid that in a sparsely populated state like Montana? The only alternative would be to play NC games against teams out of your classification, which might reduce the amount of travel, but it would also lead to more situations in which teams with vastly different levels of participation would be matched up against each other, which you're also against, so what is the solution?

[Cat Grad]

Most of my educational career was in Georgia where zones are strictly enforced for obvious reasons that will remain unsaid. It always amazed me how small high schools enrollment wise could play up two divisions and routinely beat those schools so thoroughly. Lincoln County, Washington County, Buford and now Calhoun can play up two classifications and stomp the living daylights out of the larger schools and the enrollment disparity just blew me away. When a school with 150 to 350 kids would put a beatdown on a school with 2500 kids I always thought about what goes on out here in Montana. I'm trying to think of the Montana kids in the NFL right now and it seems to me the majority of them are from the smaller schools enrollment wise. Anderson and Carpenter are the only AA kids I can think of off the top of my head. I was raised during the Big 32 and looking at just the single A football playoffs this year has me in absolute disgust. Sidney travels to Whitefish (557 miles), Columbia Falls travels to Havre (more than 250 miles), Butte Central to Miles City (370 miles) and Billings Central to Dillon (250 miles) for the quarterfinals!!!! As there are more than a few snarky comments to the line of reasoning "How can a big school forfeit?" all I can say is to me it looks like there's one school in this state with administrators with just a bit of common sense. Gawd, what a joke the MHSA has become.

I'm really not intending to be snarky, but I have no idea what point(s) you're trying to make? Why do you believe that the MSHA has become a joke? Do you think there should be fewer classifications, so that there would be less travel involved for the football playoffs? If that's your point, I don't think that would necessarily reduce travel significantly. The only way you could reduce travel very much, is if you set up the playoff brackets on a regional basis. But regardless of that, what does that have to do with Hellgate forfeiting two games? Why do you say that Missoula is the only school district with common sense? Because they allow open enrollment? Or because they chose to forfeit those two games? Again, I don't get the connection between that issue, and the issue of travel for football playoff games? Are you saying that they forfeited two road games to avoid travel? Can you help me to connect the dots?

I know better but I will respond one time. A month ago I watched a high school in Montana's second largest classification play a "team" sport, football, in which six kids played every snap on offense, defense and special teams until late in the fourth quarter. The team they beat had a game where eleven kids caught balls one game. Now when you factor in the travel for a group of 14, 15 and 16 year old kids on a dang bus, staying overnight for early season nonconference games and then hit the playoffs with this asinine travel? Simply put, Hellgate could have fielded a "team" of 14 to 16 year old kids but their coaches and administrators understood there's a very significant health issue such as the "team" that may possibly win their last three games of the year with two of the six kids on the roster who plays virtually every snap who are now 19 years of age. It's as ridiculous as colleges having to play predominately mormon teams.

Thanks for your response. I now understand your position more clearly, although I'm not sure how you would remedy these issue
s. Regarding the travel for football playoffs, I don't think it's really avoidable. Montana is a big state. Even if you tried to structure the brackets on a regional basis, there's still going to be a lot of travel involved. As for Hellgate forfeiting those two games, maybe it was the right decision under the circumstances. I just don't understand how a AA school could have such low participation for football, that they could find themselves in that position. If that's mostly due to permissive transfers/recruiting, then I'd say the Missoula school district probably needs to take a very hard look at their policies, because it should be an embarrassment to the district that one of their high schools had to forfeit two games. As for the two Class A schools that you're talking about, It's still a bit difficult to decipher your meaning, but I presume you're alluding to a significant disparity in the level of participation between the two schools in question. Again though, what is your solution? Do you believe the school with smaller numbers should be allowed to drop down to Class B, even if their enrollment was well above the A/B threshold? You also take issue with teams traveling great distances for non-conference games, but once again, if you want to play NC games, how are you going to avoid that in a sparsely populated state like Montana? The only alternative would be to play NC games against teams out of your classification, which might reduce the amount of travel, but it would also lead to more situations in which teams with vastly different levels of participation would be matched up against each other, which you're also against, so what is the solution?

Okay, I am responding, once again against my intuitive thoughts. Health and Human Development 101 stresses the need for adequate, regular sleep and exercise for teenagers. Fifty years ago virtually all the games were played at 1:00 p.m. on Fridays. Travelling these distances and getting a bunch of kids home at three or four in the morning (I've seen buses returning to the Flathead as late as 5:00 in the morning) disrupts their sleep pattern, throws their entire body off for a couple of days at the least and interfers with their academics. Back to the team that had eleven kids catch a ball one game. Their head coach played for Idaho State and one assistant played for the Grizzlies. They teach the kids continually. The year before the head coach arrived, this school had 18 kids left on the team the last game of the year. Now this school has over 100 kids out for football each fall. Although this team may not win the next three games, it is incredible to observe the progress this basically volunteer group of coaches have made instilling the fundamentals of blocking with their linemen, running routes and catching the ball, tackling and TEACHING this very young group of kids. I believe, therefore, this group of coaches and administrators in Hellgate understood their kids are not prepared for the rigors of this particular game and I commend their decision. Now I touched upon the overage kids just a bit. Yes, they may in fact be successful the next three games but their fundamentals resemble the defense of MSU. Anyway, putting a group of unprepared kids out on the field is as asinine as allowing small schools to coop for athletics but refusing to allow tbe administrators to share critical shortage teachers but that is another issue entirely. I simply implied without stating such that our kids may be on a football team but that has nothing to do with their ability to actually play the game. Small schools in other states can kick the crap out of larger schools enrollment wise because their coaches teach the fundamentals of the game. To me, our high schools resemble intramural flag football and I'm certain that is what the staff at Hellgate observed. One last point to reinforce my observations. Last week I had the unfortunate experience of watching a team that virtually every tackle they made was in fact leading with the crown of the helmet. It is a guarantee that school will have a kid with a neck injury within the next couple of years. Wait for it.

[John K]

Most of my educational career was in Georgia where zones are strictly enforced for obvious reasons that will remain unsaid. It always amazed me how small high schools enrollment wise could play up two divisions and routinely beat those schools so thoroughly. Lincoln County, Washington County, Buford and now Calhoun can play up two classifications and stomp the living daylights out of the larger schools and the enrollment disparity just blew me away. When a school with 150 to 350 kids would put a beatdown on a school with 2500 kids I always thought about what goes on out here in Montana. I'm trying to think of the Montana kids in the NFL right now and it seems to me the majority of them are from the smaller schools enrollment wise. Anderson and Carpenter are the only AA kids I can think of off the top of my head. I was raised during the Big 32 and looking at just the single A football playoffs this year has me in absolute disgust. Sidney travels to Whitefish (557 miles), Columbia Falls travels to Havre (more than 250 miles), Butte Central to Miles City (370 miles) and Billings Central to Dillon (250 miles) for the quarterfinals!!!! As there are more than a few snarky comments to the line of reasoning "How can a big school forfeit?" all I can say is to me it looks like there's one school in this state with administrators with just a bit of common sense. Gawd, what a joke the MHSA has become.

I'm really not intending to be snarky, but I have no idea what point(s) you're trying to make? Why do you believe that the MSHA has become a joke? Do you think there should be fewer classifications, so that there would be less travel involved for the football playoffs? If that's your point, I don't think that would necessarily reduce travel significantly. The only way you could reduce travel very much, is if you set up the playoff brackets on a regional basis. But regardless of that, what does that have to do with Hellgate forfeiting two games? Why do you say that Missoula is the only school district with common sense? Because they allow open enrollment? Or because they chose to forfeit those two games? Again, I don't get the connection between that issue, and the issue of travel for football playoff games? Are you saying that they forfeited two road games to avoid travel? Can you help me to connect the dots?

I know better but I will respond one time. A month ago I watched a high school in Montana's second largest classification play a "team" sport, football, in which six kids played every snap on offense, defense and special teams until late in the fourth quarter. The team they beat had a game where eleven kids caught balls one game. Now when you factor in the travel for a group of 14, 15 and 16 year old kids on a dang bus, staying overnight for early season nonconference games and then hit the playoffs with this asinine travel? Simply put, Hellgate could have fielded a "team" of 14 to 16 year old kids but their coaches and administrators understood there's a very significant health issue such as the "team" that may possibly win their last three games of the year with two of the six kids on the roster who plays virtually every snap who are now 19 years of age. It's as ridiculous as colleges having to play predominately mormon teams.

Thanks for your response. I now understand your position more clearly, although I'm not sure how you would remedy these issue
s. Regarding the travel for football playoffs, I don't think it's really avoidable. Montana is a big state. Even if you tried to structure the brackets on a regional basis, there's still going to be a lot of travel involved. As for Hellgate forfeiting those two games, maybe it was the right decision under the circumstances. I just don't understand how a AA school could have such low participation for football, that they could find themselves in that position. If that's mostly due to permissive transfers/recruiting, then I'd say the Missoula school district probably needs to take a very hard look at their policies, because it should be an embarrassment to the district that one of their high schools had to forfeit two games. As for the two Class A schools that you're talking about, It's still a bit difficult to decipher your meaning, but I presume you're alluding to a significant disparity in the level of participation between the two schools in question. Again though, what is your solution? Do you believe the school with smaller numbers should be allowed to drop down to Class B, even if their enrollment was well above the A/B threshold? You also take issue with teams traveling great distances for non-conference games, but once again, if you want to play NC games, how are you going to avoid that in a sparsely populated state like Montana? The only alternative would be to play NC games against teams out of your classification, which might reduce the amount of travel, but it would also lead to more situations in which teams with vastly different levels of participation would be matched up against each other, which you're also against, so what is the solution?

Okay, I am responding, once again against my intuitive thoughts. Health and Human Development 101 stresses the need for adequate, regular sleep and exercise for teenagers. Fifty years ago virtually all the games were played at 1:00 p.m. on Fridays. Travelling these distances and getting a bunch of kids home at three or four in the morning (I've seen buses returning to the Flathead as late as 5:00 in the morning) disrupts their sleep pattern, throws their entire body off for a couple of days at the least and interfers with their academics. Back to the team that had eleven kids catch a ball one game. Their head coach played for Idaho State and one assistant played for the Grizzlies. They teach the kids continually. The year before the head coach arrived, this school had 18 kids left on the team the last game of the year. Now this school has over 100 kids out for football each fall. Although this team may not win the next three games, it is incredible to observe the progress this basically volunteer group of coaches have made instilling the fundamentals of blocking with their linemen, running routes and catching the ball, tackling and TEACHING this very young group of kids. I believe, therefore, this group of coaches and administrators in Hellgate understood their kids are not prepared for the rigors of this particular game and I commend their decision. Now I touched upon the overage kids just a bit. Yes, they may in fact be successful the next three games but their fundamentals resemble the defense of MSU. Anyway, putting a group of unprepared kids out on the field is as asinine as allowing small schools to coop for athletics but refusing to allow tbe administrators to share critical shortage teachers but that is another issue entirely. I simply implied without stating such that our kids may be on a football team but that has nothing to do with their ability to actually play the game. Small schools in other states can kick the crap out of larger schools enrollment wise because their coaches teach the fundamentals of the game. To me, our high schools resemble intramural flag football and I'm certain that is what the staff at Hellgate observed. One last point to reinforce my observations. Last week I had the unfortunate experience of watching a team that virtually every tackle they made was in fact leading with the crown of the helmet. It is a guarantee that school will have a kid with a neck injury within the next couple of years. Wait for it.

Thanks for your response, but again, I'm not sure that you've offered up any solutions. I'll grant you that Hellgate may have made the right decision, but how did they get to the point that they had to take such a drastic measure? It sounds like you're suggesting that the real issue is that at many small high schools (sub AA) in Montana, any maybe even some larger ones such as Hellgate, the kids are suffering from a lack of quality coaching at lower grade levels, and therefore are unprepared for playing at the high school level. I won't argue with you about that. I have a buddy who is originally from the Dallas area. His girlfriend's son is playing middle school football this fall, and from watching those games, he has said that the local kids don't get nearly the same level of coaching at that age, compared to what he experienced back in Texas. I don't think that's going to change any time soon (if ever), and I don't think it's realistic to expect Montana to be at the same level as places like Texas and SEC country, where football is a religion, not to mention the disparity in population. So while I don't necessarily disagree with you, if that is your basic premise, I just don't know if there are any solutions.

You've steered this discussion in sort of a "bigger picture" direction though We were talking about Missoula's "open enrollment" policy, and how that may be allowing the other two schools to "pilfer" Hellgate's best football players, which is likely a contributing factor to them not having enough players for some games. Did Hellgate make the right decision, give the circumstances? You obviously feel that they did, and you could well be right about that. My point though, and I think most other posters would agree, is that it should never have come to this, for a AA school with an enrollment of more than 1,200. Therefore the Missoula school district might want to reexamine their policies regarding permissive transfers/open enrollment.

[Cat Grad]

Most of my educational career was in Georgia where zones are strictly enforced for obvious reasons that will remain unsaid. It always amazed me how small high schools enrollment wise could play up two divisions and routinely beat those schools so thoroughly. Lincoln County, Washington County, Buford and now Calhoun can play up two classifications and stomp the living daylights out of the larger schools and the enrollment disparity just blew me away. When a school with 150 to 350 kids would put a beatdown on a school with 2500 kids I always thought about what goes on out here in Montana. I'm trying to think of the Montana kids in the NFL right now and it seems to me the majority of them are from the smaller schools enrollment wise. Anderson and Carpenter are the only AA kids I can think of off the top of my head. I was raised during the Big 32 and looking at just the single A football playoffs this year has me in absolute disgust. Sidney travels to Whitefish (557 miles), Columbia Falls travels to Havre (more than 250 miles), Butte Central to Miles City (370 miles) and Billings Central to Dillon (250 miles) for the quarterfinals!!!! As there are more than a few snarky comments to the line of reasoning "How can a big school forfeit?" all I can say is to me it looks like there's one school in this state with administrators with just a bit of common sense. Gawd, what a joke the MHSA has become.

I'm really not intending to be snarky, but I have no idea what point(s) you're trying to make? Why do you believe that the MSHA has become a joke? Do you think there should be fewer classifications, so that there would be less travel involved for the football playoffs? If that's your point, I don't think that would necessarily reduce travel significantly. The only way you could reduce travel very much, is if you set up the playoff brackets on a regional basis. But regardless of that, what does that have to do with Hellgate forfeiting two games? Why do you say that Missoula is the only school district with common sense? Because they allow open enrollment? Or because they chose to forfeit those two games? Again, I don't get the connection between that issue, and the issue of travel for football playoff games? Are you saying that they forfeited two road games to avoid travel? Can you help me to connect the dots?

I know better but I will respond one time. A month ago I watched a high school in Montana's second largest classification play a "team" sport, football, in which six kids played every snap on offense, defense and special teams until late in the fourth quarter. The team they beat had a game where eleven kids caught balls one game. Now when you factor in the travel for a group of 14, 15 and 16 year old kids on a dang bus, staying overnight for early season nonconference games and then hit the playoffs with this asinine travel? Simply put, Hellgate could have fielded a "team" of 14 to 16 year old kids but their coaches and administrators understood there's a very significant health issue such as the "team" that may possibly win their last three games of the year with two of the six kids on the roster who plays virtually every snap who are now 19 years of age. It's as ridiculous as colleges having to play predominately mormon teams.

Thanks for your response. I now understand your position more clearly, although I'm not sure how you would remedy these issue
s. Regarding the travel for football playoffs, I don't think it's really avoidable. Montana is a big state. Even if you tried to structure the brackets on a regional basis, there's still going to be a lot of travel involved. As for Hellgate forfeiting those two games, maybe it was the right decision under the circumstances. I just don't understand how a AA school could have such low participation for football, that they could find themselves in that position. If that's mostly due to permissive transfers/recruiting, then I'd say the Missoula school district probably needs to take a very hard look at their policies, because it should be an embarrassment to the district that one of their high schools had to forfeit two games. As for the two Class A schools that you're talking about, It's still a bit difficult to decipher your meaning, but I presume you're alluding to a significant disparity in the level of participation between the two schools in question. Again though, what is your solution? Do you believe the school with smaller numbers should be allowed to drop down to Class B, even if their enrollment was well above the A/B threshold? You also take issue with teams traveling great distances for non-conference games, but once again, if you want to play NC games, how are you going to avoid that in a sparsely populated state like Montana? The only alternative would be to play NC games against teams out of your classification, which might reduce the amount of travel, but it would also lead to more situations in which teams with vastly different levels of participation would be matched up against each other, which you're also against, so what is the solution?

Okay, I am responding, once again against my intuitive thoughts. Health and Human Development 101 stresses the need for adequate, regular sleep and exercise for teenagers. Fifty years ago virtually all the games were played at 1:00 p.m. on Fridays. Travelling these distances and getting a bunch of kids home at three or four in the morning (I've seen buses returning to the Flathead as late as 5:00 in the morning) disrupts their sleep pattern, throws their entire body off for a couple of days at the least and interfers with their academics. Back to the team that had eleven kids catch a ball one game. Their head coach played for Idaho State and one assistant played for the Grizzlies. They teach the kids continually. The year before the head coach arrived, this school had 18 kids left on the team the last game of the year. Now this school has over 100 kids out for football each fall. Although this team may not win the next three games, it is incredible to observe the progress this basically volunteer group of coaches have made instilling the fundamentals of blocking with their linemen, running routes and catching the ball, tackling and TEACHING this very young group of kids. I believe, therefore, this group of coaches and administrators in Hellgate understood their kids are not prepared for the rigors of this particular game and I commend their decision. Now I touched upon the overage kids just a bit. Yes, they may in fact be successful the next three games but their fundamentals resemble the defense of MSU. Anyway, putting a group of unprepared kids out on the field is as asinine as allowing small schools to coop for athletics but refusing to allow tbe administrators to share critical shortage teachers but that is another issue entirely. I simply implied without stating such that our kids may be on a football team but that has nothing to do with their ability to actually play the game. Small schools in other states can kick the crap out of larger schools enrollment wise because their coaches teach the fundamentals of the game. To me, our high schools resemble intramural flag football and I'm certain that is what the staff at Hellgate observed. One last point to reinforce my observations. Last week I had the unfortunate experience of watching a team that virtually every tackle they made was in fact leading with the crown of the helmet. It is a guarantee that school will have a kid with a neck injury within the next couple of years. Wait for it.

Thanks for your response, but again, I'm not sure that you've offered up any solutions. I'll grant you that Hellgate may have made the right decision, but how did they get to the point that they had to take such a drastic measure? It sounds like you're suggesting that the real issue is that at many small high schools (sub AA) in Montana, any maybe even some larger ones such as Hellgate, the kids are suffering from a lack of quality coaching at lower grade levels, and therefore are unprepared for playing at the high school level. I won't argue with you about that. I have a buddy who is originally from the Dallas area. His girlfriend's son is playing middle school football this fall, and from watching those games, he has said that the local kids don't get nearly the same level of coaching at that age, compared to what he experienced back in Texas. I don't think that's going to change any time soon (if ever), and I don't think it's realistic to expect Montana to be at the same level as places like Texas and SEC country, where football is a religion, not to mention the disparity in population. So while I don't necessarily disagree with you, if that is your basic premise, I just don't know if there are any solutions.

You've steered this discussion in sort of a "bigger picture" direction though We were talking about Missoula's "open enrollment" policy, and how that may be allowing the other two schools to "pilfer" Hellgate's best football players, which is likely a contributing factor to them not having enough players for some games. Did Hellgate make the right decision, give the circumstances? You obviously feel that they did, and you could well be right about that. My point though, and I think most other posters would agree, is that it should never have come to this, for a AA school with an enrollment of more than 1,200. Therefore the Missoula school district might want to reexamine their policies regarding permissive transfers/open enrollment.

There was some discussion about open enrollment. Along those same lines then you have schools such as Boulder that loses several kids each and every year to the Helena schools, Vaughn loses kids to Simms (elementary I understand), Columbia Falls has over 300 kids in Whitefish, Kalispell and Bigfork, Hays/Lodge Pole has about thirty kids in Dodson, Malta or Harlem and don't get me started on our private schools (especially when I had to provide services to private schools on the grants I wrote). Bozeman did not win a state championship in anything until Rosary closed and yes, I'd love to have enough private schools in this state so we could do like Tennessee and make them play with themselves as long as they can recruit or at least be like Georgia and subject them to a multiplier of 1.5! As far as the coaching (teaching) of the fundamentals? Summer camps. College coaches are for the most part more knowledgeable than our high school volunteers (I use that term because of the state pay scale). I don't believe in making excuses for the present condition and that's what so many are doing. There is a major problem in this state and all everyone does is sweep it under the rug and explain how large we are, there's a small population, etc. Admit there's a problem and decide how to correct it because the kids deserve better than dressing out and watching a half dozen kids play Friday night so a coach can get another trophy. Teach them all or find another profession.

[JDoub]

As for travel, how come Montana AA schools never schedule out of state games??? Here's some examples of regular season games played this year, that could be other possibilities:

Missoula Sentinel vs Billings Senior:
343 miles

Other possibilities for Sentinel: I found 7 High Schools at least 140 miles closer, one less than half the distance
Coeur d'Alene Vikings, 166 miles, 1500 student body, 5A Idaho school
Ferris HS Spokane, 197 miles, 1800 student body
University HS Spokane, 197 miles, 1850 students
Lewis & Clark HS Spokane, 197 miles, 1900 students
Shadle Park HS Spokane, Central Valley HS Spokane, Mead HS Spokane, you get the point

Glacier vs Bozeman:
309 miles

Alternatives for Glacier: I found 8 High Schools that are significantly closer:
Coeur d"Alene, 206 miles
all the Spokane HS listed above, 237 miles
Sandpoint HS, 172 miles, 1000 students


West vs Hellgate: 344 miles

Alternatives for West: I found 1 HS less than half that distance, and another over 100 miles shorter
Sheridan HS, 132 miles, 1100 students
Campbell County HS, 234 miles, 1500 students

Bozeman vs Flathead, 309 miles

Alternatives for Bozeman: I found 8 High Schools more than 50 miles closer, one that's 130 miles closer:
Madison HS Bobcats (playing for the Idaho State Championship this Saturday), 180 miles
Idaho Falls has 3 comparable sized High Schools, 196 miles
Blackfoot HS, 224 miles
Pocatello has 3 comparable HS, 247 miles

Food for thought. Other states find ways to successfully play cross-state teams when it makes sense. Many of these possibilities make sense to me -- less travel, more competitive exposure. Some of these alternatives could turn an overnight travel trip into a day trip, reducing expenses as well. I see Sidney has done this -- they played 2 North Dakota High Schools this year -- I think that's just smart. (Watford City 55 miles away, Williston 48 miles)

[WeedKillinCat]

I remember in the late 70's Great Falls High flew down to Boise (I think) for a game against one of their high schools. I think some of the smaller schools do play OOC games in neighboring states. A few years ago Billings Central went down to play Powell, WY

[John K]

As for travel, how come Montana AA schools never schedule out of state games??? Here's some examples of regular season games played this year, that could be other possibilities:

Missoula Sentinel vs Billings Senior:
343 miles

Other possibilities for Sentinel: I found 7 High Schools at least 140 miles closer, one less than half the distance
Coeur d'Alene Vikings, 166 miles, 1500 student body, 5A Idaho school
Ferris HS Spokane, 197 miles, 1800 student body
University HS Spokane, 197 miles, 1850 students
Lewis & Clark HS Spokane, 197 miles, 1900 students
Shadle Park HS Spokane, Central Valley HS Spokane, Mead HS Spokane, you get the point

Glacier vs Bozeman:
309 miles

Alternatives for Glacier: I found 8 High Schools that are significantly closer:
Coeur d"Alene, 206 miles
all the Spokane HS listed above, 237 miles
Sandpoint HS, 172 miles, 1000 students


West vs Hellgate: 344 miles

Alternatives for West: I found 1 HS less than half that distance, and another over 100 miles shorter
Sheridan HS, 132 miles, 1100 students
Campbell County HS, 234 miles, 1500 students

Bozeman vs Flathead, 309 miles

Alternatives for Bozeman: I found 8 High Schools more than 50 miles closer, one that's 130 miles closer:
Madison HS Bobcats (playing for the Idaho State Championship this Saturday), 180 miles
Idaho Falls has 3 comparable sized High Schools, 196 miles
Blackfoot HS, 224 miles
Pocatello has 3 comparable HS, 247 miles

Food for thought. Other states find ways to successfully play cross-state teams when it makes sense. Many of these possibilities make sense to me -- less travel, more competitive exposure. Some of these alternatives could turn an overnight travel trip into a day trip, reducing expenses as well. I see Sidney has done this -- they played 2 North Dakota High Schools this year -- I think that's just smart. (Watford City 55 miles away, Williston 48 miles)

The short answer is that AA schools play 10 conference games, so there's no room on the schedule for any non-conference games. Obviously, you could reduce the conference schedule to 8 or 9 games, to allow for 1 or 2 non-conference matchups. Before Glacier opened in 2007, some teams played only 9 conference games, and I think some schools did play out of state teams occasionally. I'm pretty sure I remember the GF schools playing Canadian teams a few times, and I think the Billings schools sometimes played teams from Wyoming. The Missoula and Kalispell schools may have played some Idaho teams as well. I'm not really in favor of reducing the conference schedule though. Any time a league can't play a full round robin, I want there to be as many conference games as possible, simply to reduce the potential for significant inequalities in strength of schedule. We're definitely seeing that in the BSC, ever since it expanded, and teams no longer play a full round robin, and it can potentially have major ramifications with regard to contending for the conference title and/or a playoff berth. I'd actually like to see the BSC go to a 9-game schedule. I don't really see any reason why they couldn't. Many of the teams schedule a NC game against another BSC school already, so why not have all schools play 9 conference games, and have that extra one actually count in the standings.

[Cat Grad]

As for travel, how come Montana AA schools never schedule out of state games??? Here's some examples of regular season games played this year, that could be other possibilities:

Missoula Sentinel vs Billings Senior:
343 miles

Other possibilities for Sentinel: I found 7 High Schools at least 140 miles closer, one less than half the distance
Coeur d'Alene Vikings, 166 miles, 1500 student body, 5A Idaho school
Ferris HS Spokane, 197 miles, 1800 student body
University HS Spokane, 197 miles, 1850 students
Lewis & Clark HS Spokane, 197 miles, 1900 students
Shadle Park HS Spokane, Central Valley HS Spokane, Mead HS Spokane, you get the point

Glacier vs Bozeman:
309 miles

Alternatives for Glacier: I found 8 High Schools that are significantly closer:
Coeur d"Alene, 206 miles
all the Spokane HS listed above, 237 miles
Sandpoint HS, 172 miles, 1000 students


West vs Hellgate: 344 miles

Alternatives for West: I found 1 HS less than half that distance, and another over 100 miles shorter
Sheridan HS, 132 miles, 1100 students
Campbell County HS, 234 miles, 1500 students

Bozeman vs Flathead, 309 miles

Alternatives for Bozeman: I found 8 High Schools more than 50 miles closer, one that's 130 miles closer:
Madison HS Bobcats (playing for the Idaho State Championship this Saturday), 180 miles
Idaho Falls has 3 comparable sized High Schools, 196 miles
Blackfoot HS, 224 miles
Pocatello has 3 comparable HS, 247 miles

Food for thought. Other states find ways to successfully play cross-state teams when it makes sense. Many of these possibilities make sense to me -- less travel, more competitive exposure. Some of these alternatives could turn an overnight travel trip into a day trip, reducing expenses as well. I see Sidney has done this -- they played 2 North Dakota High Schools this year -- I think that's just smart. (Watford City 55 miles away, Williston 48 miles)

After reading your facts and what is bound to be the responses, I couldn't help but recall a quote from Mark Twain that was prominately displayed in a mid-sized school system of about 35,000 students board room as a constant reminder to keep it real: "In the first place God made idiots. This was for practice. Then he made school boards." My generation had a great deal of respect for Mr. Clemons and his frequent trips to Butte to visit his childhood friend, Burton K. Wheeler, who was the gentleman after whom he fasioned the character Huckleberry Finn. If it makes sense, our MHSA is not about to allow it. The "big" schools simply do not want a repeat of the last few years of the Big 32 (can you say Libby, Laurel and Wolf Point?) and the sensible distances involved in various and assorted extra curricular activities and heaven forbid anyone were to mention consolidating (even coops). Even in the "larger" schools.

[WeedKillinCat]

Looks like Hellgate won't have a varsity team next year

http://missoulian.com/news/local/mcps-b ... ac265.html

[John K]

Looks like Hellgate won't have a varsity team next year

http://missoulian.com/news/local/mcps-b ... ac265.html

That just blows my mind that a AA school with an enrollment of approximately 1,200 students, doesn't have enough junior/senior football players to field a varsity team. While Fairfield, with an enrollment of about 120 students, not only fielded a team, but won the state Class B championship. This should help Big Sky and Sentinel next year though. It really throws a money wrench into scheduling too, since AA will now have an odd number of teams.